Author Topic: PIP mobility scenario  (Read 822 times)

Fiz

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PIP mobility scenario
« on: September 02, 2017, 02:32:58 PM »
Scenario.

Person with a spinal condition which causes constant pain. They can walk at normal speed up to half a mile where nerve pain becomes excruciating and they can barely get home. They take class 1 painkillers constantly, tablets and patches. There are no shops or anything within half a mile so they are effectively housebound because they can't walk the mile to a shop. Even moving around the house is very painful.

As I read the PIP criteria because they can walk 20 metres or even 50 at normal speed they wouldn't be entitled to PIP or does the fact they a) they are on constant pain and take class 1 drugs daily in order to mobilise at all and b) they can't actually get anywhere due to the distance being too far so are effectively housebound have any impact on the decision?

Thanks.

SunshineMeadows

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 03:08:52 PM »
Quote
b) they can't actually get anywhere due to the distance being too far so are effectively housebound have any impact on the decision?

I could be wrong but I dont think personal living circumstances like that are taken into account.


Fiz

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 03:47:02 PM »
I'm sure you're right sunshine, that's what I assumed too. I was wondering whether the amount and type and frequency of necessary pain relief had any impact. Reading PIP criteria it's not at all clear on this.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 08:27:08 PM »
The repeatedly, reliably thing may be relevant.  I'll see if I can find a reference to it.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 08:29:29 PM »
Here's my notes on it, but I don't have a source.  I'll see if I can find one to make sure it's up-to-date.

Reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely

An individual must be able to complete an activity descriptor reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely; and where indicated, using aids or with support from another person. Otherwise they should be considered unable to complete the activity described at that level.

Reliably means to a reasonable standard.

In a timely fashion means in less than twice the time it would take for an individual without any impairment.

Repeatedly means completed as often during the day as the individual activity requires. Consideration needs to be given to the cumulative effects of symptoms such as pain and fatigue – i.e. whether completing the activity adversely affects the individual’s ability to subsequently complete other activities.

Safely means in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to the individual, either directly or through vulnerability to the actions of others; or to another person.

Risk and Safety

When considering whether an activity can be undertaken safely it is important to consider the risk of a serious adverse event occurring. However, the risk that a serious adverse event may occur due to impairments is insufficient – there has to be evidence that if the activity was undertaken, the adverse event is likely to occur.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 08:32:29 PM »
I've found a reference in my folder to a DWP toolkit for assessors but I don't have a link for it and I don't have a cloud-thingy I can link to.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 08:38:17 PM »
Citizens Advice

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/how-decisions-are-made/


When the assessor decides which descriptor applies to you, they must consider whether you can carry out the activity reliably. This means:

    safely in a way that is unlikely to cause harm either to you or anyone else, either during the activity or afterwards
    to an acceptable standard
    repeatedly as often as is reasonably required
    in a reasonable time period - should take you no more than twice as long someone without your condition
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Fiz

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 09:05:17 AM »
Here's my notes on it, but I don't have a source.  I'll see if I can find one to make sure it's up-to-date.

Reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely

An individual must be able to complete an activity descriptor reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely; and where indicated, using aids or with support from another person. Otherwise they should be considered unable to complete the activity described at that level.

Reliably means to a reasonable standard.

In a timely fashion means in less than twice the time it would take for an individual without any impairment.

Repeatedly means completed as often during the day as the individual activity requires. Consideration needs to be given to the cumulative effects of symptoms such as pain and fatigue – i.e. whether completing the activity adversely affects the individual’s ability to subsequently complete other activities.

Safely means in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to the individual, either directly or through vulnerability to the actions of others; or to another person.

Risk and Safety

When considering whether an activity can be undertaken safely it is important to consider the risk of a serious adverse event occurring. However, the risk that a serious adverse event may occur due to impairments is insufficient – there has to be evidence that if the activity was undertaken, the adverse event is likely to occur.

Thanks sunny. I think the one that sticks out as most important is the repeatedly, because the movement often causes pain causing incapacity for 2-4 days. Therefore they don't mobilise because they'd probably end up incapacitated for days. They're in pain all the time too. I'm not sure how many points this alone would give them though.

Monic1511

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 06:03:35 PM »
re:  They can walk at normal speed up to half a mile - you need to be clearer about statements like that as that would lose an award.
As Sunny said there is also repeatedly, reliably and safely.

The DWP will say the condition has to affect you the majority of the time and if the pain only comes on with exertion of half a mile then there is no way they have mobility problems as most folk wouldn't walk half a mile rest and expect a blue badge.   That statement needs to be watered down.   Extreme and debilitating Nerve pain is triggered by walking distances, as a result of this the claimant limits their mobilising efforts to once a week.  They cannot repeatedly mobilise more than 20 steps without having to stop for a rest, repeated mobilising of short distances causes the same result and the claimant is bed bound as a result.

Don't say things like I walked to the shops - the tribunal use google maps so know how far the shops are and unless you can show the shortcuts - I didn't walk half a mile, I walked across my neighbours back garden which is 20 - 30 m - then you are screwed.

pain on its own is no reason not to mobilise  unfortunately
 >dove< Monic

Fiz

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 11:10:01 PM »
Thanks Monic that's helpful.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2017, 01:06:15 PM »
When I filled in my PIP form, I assumed I wouldn't get the mobility element  but gave them loads of info about my mobility anyway on the basis that it would form the foundation for a later claim if it worsens, i.e. to show it's an ongoing problem.

However, given how frequently I'm falling and the injuries I'm getting, I think that if I don't get the mobility element, I may appeal, because the 'safely' aspect is increasingly a problem, and I hadn't really thought about the 'repeatedly' impact in terms of recovery like fatigue and stiffened muscles  etc.  You know how it is, you have a fall or walk further than your body is currently up to, and you can think in terms of pain rather than physical dysfunction even when the new pain arises from a physical dysfunction, and it's the physical dysfunction that is actually the biggest obstacle, e.g. torn muscle fibres or cramps or whatever.  (I'm one of those people that tends to forget that 'torn' muscles aren't just about some nasty injury that rips a whole muscle apart, it's also the little fibres that then have to heal.)

But I'm having another of those days where I shake my head at it.  I know the government wants to cut benefits, but I do think that a lot of these criteria aren't about cutting it the way the leading politicians conceptualise what they're doing.  They're not lifting the floor so that if you have ten people on DLA/PIP, they deny them to the 3 or 4 least disabled, they're denying them to 3 or 4 random people on the benefits. 

Having said that, I can suddenly think of a perfect analogy - the education system.  I can't say I think the exams in my day made much sense, but if you see what the youngsters get tested on now, most of it seems to bear little relation to the realities of life and the subjects ostensibly being tested.  Or I go and see my GP about my mental health and he's checking my blood pressure and weight etc. while we're talking because his government targets for me as a mad patient are my physical health not my sanity, the latter being a presumed unwritten target of treatment, but which he has little time for whilst achieving physical targets.

So I approach this subject with a mixture of negativity (which is generally worse than usual for me at the moment), cynicism, and hope, the last being based on what others here are saying about getting their PIP.

Hang on - I've got it!  Having regard to modern culture, the way to 'bribe' my PIP assessor into saying yes is to turn up with a cat on a roomba and to tell her she can have both; plus a dancing parrot that repeats "Austerity is good, approve one claim in 20, sanction the rest."

 >erm<

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Fiz

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 05:48:40 PM »
I'm seriously considering reapplying with a change of circumstances because of my back pain.  I'm now on tramadol every day and oramorph for when I leave the house and walk for more than 5 minutes. Plus after a walking day I'm in extreme pain and mostly bedridden for 2-3 days. But I will see if the spine clinic do investigations on the current condition of my spine and if that proves a deterioration. It really needs an MRI to see the spinal nerves and cord but I expect they will just do an X ray as it's so much cheaper.

Fiz

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 09:18:12 AM »
Looking at the PIP taking a journey question. What is a journey, or more accurately how do thee DWP define it?

Is going to the post box around the corner a journey?
To the shops 2 miles away?
Or to visit a relative 40 miles away?

Seems to me not knowing exactly what a journey is in the eyes of the DWP it's an impossible question to answer.

I'm aiming to discuss PIP mobility with my GP when she visits today but she's bound to want to know the same thing.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 10:19:39 AM »
I don't know what they call a journey, but when filling in my PIP form, if in doubt, I defined everything, but then I can be very obsessive compulsive with paperwork.  So if they want to know what you can do alone or whatever, maybe say something quite specific that shows how far you can or can't go, what sort of places you can or can't go to. 

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: PIP mobility scenario
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 10:32:09 AM »
Epilepsy society

"'Journey' means a local journey, whether familiar or unfamiliar. 'Follow' means having the mental ability to reliably follow a route, it does not mean the physical act of moving. "

Pipinfo (pipinfonet)

"In [2016] UKUT 420 (AAC) Judge Jacobs confirms that, although the DWP guidance on Activity 1 defines a journey as being a 'local' journey, the legislation does not state this and there is therefore no requirement for the descriptor to be assessed in relation to a local journey."

(There's a lot more there - both on the page and on the site, particularly stuff backed up by decisions not just opinion.  It's a charity backed by the Law Society.)




(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)