Author Topic: IDS is back.  (Read 3969 times)

Minniehaha

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 12:24:38 AM by Minniehaha »

Offworld

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 03:06:37 AM »
IDS's truly prodigious squandering of public funds on grandiose but dud computer systems -- though doubtless nice for the regime's corporate cronies -- is surely diverting substantial sums from the budgets of other government departments, thereby inconveniencing cabinet colleagues even though they themselves also want several million poor, ill and disabled British people to be "disappeared".
Yet, again, that fake-cv minister contrives to remain in office .... the only possible explanation must be that he acquired some very interesting personal files while "leader"....

Offworld

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 04:45:00 AM »
In the Guardian, IDS declared his destruction of welfare would "have to involve changes in behaviour".
As if he was some sort of animal trainer -- entirely consistent with references by him and 'Lord' Freud to (what they deem inferior) people as "stock". 
What calls itself Labour is not going to offer any significant opposition; Reeves made that unambiguously clear prior to the election when on her party's behalf she rejected the unemployed, having previously promised to be even harsher than the Tories.
Seemed a strange way of appealing to less affluent voters -- but of course, as Mandelson wrote this weekend, Labour's priority nowadays is to appeal to the type of person who shops at Waitrose.
But both the Tories and Labour subscribe to agenda devised by Unum anyway.
Just have to hope that in the coming parliament the SNP feel argumentative.......

JLR2

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 08:11:42 AM »
Cameron gets elected with a majority and still has not the guts to sack a minister he tried to sack when in coalition. How I hope we go for a unilateral declaration of Independence soon.

JLR2

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 08:18:52 AM »
Just dawned on me, the first I heard of IDS keeping his job at the DWP was in a one sentence remark late last night as folk were chatting about something else but this morning as I settled down to BBC Breakfast news I saw nothing beyond the usual fluff and nonsense NO word about IDS being confirmed safe in his job.  The BBC did as it was told during the election and never questioned the absence from the election campaign of IDS, absence beyond his 3 appearances only one of which saw him questioned about the 10bn of other welfare cuts and even then Andrew Neil knew his lines and his future, his well paid contract, with the BBC was on one of them.

Prabhakari

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2015, 09:42:51 AM »
If I.D.S. was held in, he will now be unleashed.

 >wheelchair<
Bless 'em all, bless 'em all,
The long and the short and the tall.

NeuralgicNeurotic

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2015, 11:42:23 AM »
It gets worse. Priti Patel, a woman who supports the re-introduction of capital punishment, is replacing McVey at Employment  :-(

Mervyn James

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2015, 12:08:16 PM »
It gets worse. Priti Patel, a woman who supports the re-introduction of capital punishment, is replacing McVey at Employment  :-(

I'm for capital punishment really, especially for drug pushers and child abusers.  As they abuse rights at every level and in the worst possible way, they aren't entitled to them after.  I didn't understand why Australia wanted them let off in the Philippines, they  had a drug ring going there and knew what would happen if they got caught.  Had they been jailed and returned to OZ they would be back on the street in hours.  They showed no compassion or care for the misery they inflict on others.  Wait until your child is abused or they make an addict of your family members, you may well change your mind !

Sunny Clouds

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2015, 01:41:24 PM »
I do not support capital punishment.  These are my reasons.

1. For it to be acceptable, it has to be applied evenly.  In those countries where it is applied, and in this country where it was applied in the past, it has not been applied evenly in terms of matters such as social status, religion, colour, wealth etc. 

2. Even though we have a legal system where criminal cases have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, miscarriages of justice come back to haunt us. Overturning someone's conviction after they are dead is not justice.

3. One could argue that it acts as a deterrent, however it did not act as one here and there are plenty of parts of the world where it does not.  If it did, you wouldn't get people executed for corruption in China, because there would be no corruption; you would not get gay people thrown off the top of buildings by ISIS, because anyone with an attraction to the opposite sex would suppress and hide it;  you would not get Black people committing the same crimes as White people in America because they would know that they would be more likely to face the death penalty.  In my opinion, the severity of the penalty acts as far less of a deterrent than a fair and effective system with a lower penalty.

4. Witnesses can be mistaken.  There is plenty of research to show that people will see what they expect to see.  I expect almost everyone here (subject to not being VI) has seen the hidden gorilla video.  https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo  And once you've been mistaken, it's difficult to backtrack.

5. Like it or not, there is corruption in every legal and criminal system throughout the world and ours is no exception.  Death is not a fair price to pay for it.


Let me tell you a personal experience and then extrapolate from it.  As a primary school child, in the days when children could and did go out by themselves, I went into a local shop.  I saw that a man was watching me and felt uncomfortable and left.  I realised that he was following me, and being bright made some rapid connections - I had with me an own-brand item from that shop that had been given to me the night before. 

The man who had been following me caught up with me and dragged me back to the shop.  He told the manager not only that he believed that I had stolen the item but that he had seen me steal it.   He had not.  I had not been anywhere near the part of the shop where those items were displayed and I had not actually touched anything in the area of the shop I had been in.  He could not have been mistaken, he was lying.

It was clear from all the circumstances that this was not an interrogation ploy that they had cooked up.  The manager phoned my mother and said that I had stolen the item and that he was going to the police.

My mother, instead of spending all day explaining how she'd given me the item,  just did the "do you know who her father is?" thing.  I was allowed to go.

I learnt at that point that (1) people are willing to lie at the expense of an innocent person; and (2) social connections are more important than innocence when it comes to avoiding false conviction. 

Finally, I know what it is to aim my rifle at a man's chest, make the decision to kill, and take up the tension on the trigger.  I stopped with fractions of a second to spare as the situation changed, but I think that it's far easier to take life lightly if you're at a longer distance from it.   If you want the death penalty, you should be prepared to do it yourself and be prepared to explain to the relatives and friends of the person you kill why you thought that it was the right, fair and necessary thing to do.

I will say something some may consider unpleasant.  If you think that the death penalty would be ok in the UK, you're probably either naive about our system of 'justice' or you're tending towards callous, and you almost certainly think that you'd never be the one wrongly executed.



(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

oldtone27

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2015, 01:56:51 PM »
I broadly agree with Sunny Clouds. I don't think it is an effective deterrent, but my main objection is the that the consequences of an incorrect conviction is irreversible.

Mervyn James

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2015, 04:16:49 PM »
I do not support capital punishment.  These are my reasons.

1. For it to be acceptable, it has to be applied evenly.  In those countries where it is applied, and in this country where it was applied in the past, it has not been applied evenly in terms of matters such as social status, religion, colour, wealth etc. 

2. Even though we have a legal system where criminal cases have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, miscarriages of justice come back to haunt us. Overturning someone's conviction after they are dead is not justice.

3. One could argue that it acts as a deterrent, however it did not act as one here and there are plenty of parts of the world where it does not.  If it did, you wouldn't get people executed for corruption in China, because there would be no corruption; you would not get gay people thrown off the top of buildings by ISIS, because anyone with an attraction to the opposite sex would suppress and hide it;  you would not get Black people committing the same crimes as White people in America because they would know that they would be more likely to face the death penalty.  In my opinion, the severity of the penalty acts as far less of a deterrent than a fair and effective system with a lower penalty.

4. Witnesses can be mistaken.  There is plenty of research to show that people will see what they expect to see.  I expect almost everyone here (subject to not being VI) has seen the hidden gorilla video.  https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo  And once you've been mistaken, it's difficult to backtrack.

5. Like it or not, there is corruption in every legal and criminal system throughout the world and ours is no exception.  Death is not a fair price to pay for it.


Let me tell you a personal experience and then extrapolate from it.  As a primary school child, in the days when children could and did go out by themselves, I went into a local shop.  I saw that a man was watching me and felt uncomfortable and left.  I realised that he was following me, and being bright made some rapid connections - I had with me an own-brand item from that shop that had been given to me the night before. 

The man who had been following me caught up with me and dragged me back to the shop.  He told the manager not only that he believed that I had stolen the item but that he had seen me steal it.   He had not.  I had not been anywhere near the part of the shop where those items were displayed and I had not actually touched anything in the area of the shop I had been in.  He could not have been mistaken, he was lying.

It was clear from all the circumstances that this was not an interrogation ploy that they had cooked up.  The manager phoned my mother and said that I had stolen the item and that he was going to the police.

My mother, instead of spending all day explaining how she'd given me the item,  just did the "do you know who her father is?" thing.  I was allowed to go.

I learnt at that point that (1) people are willing to lie at the expense of an innocent person; and (2) social connections are more important than innocence when it comes to avoiding false conviction. 

Finally, I know what it is to aim my rifle at a man's chest, make the decision to kill, and take up the tension on the trigger.  I stopped with fractions of a second to spare as the situation changed, but I think that it's far easier to take life lightly if you're at a longer distance from it.   If you want the death penalty, you should be prepared to do it yourself and be prepared to explain to the relatives and friends of the person you kill why you thought that it was the right, fair and necessary thing to do.

I will say something some may consider unpleasant.  If you think that the death penalty would be ok in the UK, you're probably either naive about our system of 'justice' or you're tending towards callous, and you almost certainly think that you'd never be the one wrongly executed.

On the basis of those opinions there is no deterrent.  It invalidates crime and punishment, life doesn't mean life, and then they are given rights and compensation on top in the UK.  What message does it send in reality ? you do the crime, you don't do the time, if you violate rights, it doesn't matter yours are still paramount.  I've no time with human rights lawyers who protect the rights of the guilty,  so they can be set free to violate again the rights of others.  Shows how far we have gone when asking for punishment to fit the crime, is called naive.... and even callous, we are the victims here.  I'd vote death penalty if they had a referendum.  I believe that in the scheme of things, most guilty will pay the price.  It would be a price I'm afraid worth paying.

KizzyKazaer

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2015, 05:08:09 PM »
Re capital punishment - I couldn't give a flying fig about the 'rights' of, say, child abusers and serial killers, they can rot in the darkest corner of hell as far as I'm concerned.  But as long as there's a chance that an innocent person may be executed, I can't support the re-introduction of the death penalty.

Returning to IDS:

Quote
In the Guardian, IDS declared his destruction of welfare would "have to involve changes in behaviour".

Oh?  How is his behaviour going to change, I thought he'd already reached his maximum arsehole quotient...

Fizzbw

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2015, 07:06:39 PM »
I dont support the death penalty. But life should mean that. I also believe everyone has the rights to human rights, but that it can be misused.

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

As for changing behaviour and being an animal trainer. All good animal behaviourists and trainers, who understand the science of learning, understand that using punishment and negative reinforcement in training gets fast initial results but does not work long term, is not efficient or effective and usually triggers unwanted behaviours and aggression in the future. It also creates somethg called learned helplessness which is where the animal is exposed to an adversive stimulus so often, with no escape route, so capitulates and stays in the adversive situation despite there now being an escape route. People learn in exactly the same way. IDS punishing regime is likely to cause learned helplessness or aggression.

Fx

Sunny Clouds

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2015, 07:43:17 PM »
With respect, Mervyn, I think that you have completely misunderstood what I have said.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

lankou

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Re: IDS is back.
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 07:43:35 PM »
It gets worse. Priti Patel, a woman who supports the re-introduction of capital punishment, is replacing McVey at Employment  :-(

(https://johnnyvoid.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/priti-death.jpg)