Author Topic: The Pope  (Read 423 times)

Fiz

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The Pope
« on: July 09, 2017, 08:25:10 PM »
I read on the news today that the Pope has completely forbidden gluten free wafers for Holy Communion.

I'm glad I'm not Catholic. 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40545023 

KizzyKazaer

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 09:29:08 PM »
Are the Vatican bored or something?  With all the current world problems, I can't understand why time should be spent on this unnecessary measure >erm<  (and it seems just plain old mean-spirited towards those who are gluten intolerant  >angry<)

huhn

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 07:29:51 AM »
and it has to be alcohol , what  can  do a ex alcoholic?
 but I found with more people  doing a diet without  a health reason, the tolerance to medical reasons is  down. and a lot of people are not aware what happens when the diet is not kept. nice that the medicine makes  so a progress , but now people  are not accepting that medicine has also his boarders and  can not  do all.

NeuralgicNeurotic

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 07:54:01 AM »
I was pretty surprised about this, as hitherto Pope Francis has made some very pragmatic and sensible decisions. How are coeliacs going to receive communion?

SunshineMeadows

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 08:00:02 AM »
I dont know enough about Cathlolisim (sp) or people who need gluten free diets to properly comment but all the same I will try.

Are the communion wafers big enough to affect a person who is on a gluten free diet?
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/07/08/letter_to_bishops_on_the_bread_and_wine_for_the_eucharist/1323886
It seems like the both bread and wine used in communion are supposed to be as near as possible the same as Christ used during the first communion.

Maintaining a consistant faith in any religion must be more difficult in the modern world because scientific method can  suggest we are creatures of nature not faith.

Thinking about it communion being the same for over 2000 years does count for something.


NeuralgicNeurotic

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2017, 08:17:46 AM »
I found this:

https://www.coeliac.ie/live-gluten-free/taking-communion/

It seems there is an option to take either wine or wafers for communion.

lankou

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2017, 08:44:51 AM »
A meal without wine is breakfast.

huhn

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2017, 09:13:36 AM »
sunshine, gluten  are already for  some people in microgram amount deadly, some can have  a small cross contamination,  that means  not even a bread crumb is not aloud. the result of gluten on the system is depending on the person, von malnutrition, to weeks of  sitting on the loo, to get  sick  or even  neurological damage is  known.

ATurtle

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2017, 01:32:07 AM »
It is not actually the Pope saying all this, rather it is Cardinal Robert Sarah, a Ghanaian Cardinal who has on several occasions had his words "misinterpreted".  According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, although no actual recipe is given it is stated that unleavened wheat bread should be used for communion.

This puts Cardinal Sarah in a position of strength in this argument, however, as the Roman Catholic Church is a collection of diocese in which the Bishop is the main authority and interpreter of the will of the church. If someone has a gluten allergy, they should make this known to the priest who will then consult with his Bishop to see if something can be done.

I have heard tell of some priests who have a supply of gluten free hosts that are consecrated at the same time as the others and the coeliacs are asked to come up last to receive their communion and he   

The problem I have is that I have trouble accepting half the things that come from Cardinal Sarah, thanks to the number of controversies he has already been a part of.  However, as a dutiful Catholic, I have to accept the rules the Vatican hand down.
Tony.

"I choose not to place "DIS", in my ability." - Robert M. Hensel

Sunny Clouds

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2017, 12:16:00 PM »
What seems weird to me is that the pronouncement (and I've only read summaries of it, not the actual text) appears to say that GMO wheat is ok but not gluten-free.

But what if you had naturally occurring gluten-free?  There are all sorts of natural mutations in plants.  Indeed, from what I've read in totally different contexts, if you'd eaten English wheat a few centuries ago, it would have had a very significantly lower amount of  gluten in it.  I first started getting interested in natural changes in food crops for different reasons after someone mentioned it to me in the context of the great Irish Famine.  You see, I'd seen there was an unemployment crisis with the collapse of the potato export industry, which could lead to starvation via poverty, but typically the potato farmers were also home subsistence farmers as well, and surely they could get their energy from their protein source rather than their main carb source if the potato crop failed?  No, my knowledgable friend told me, they used to grow different potatoes to eat themselves.  The export crop was like our modern supermarket spuds, full of carbs, but the potatoes they ate themselves were 'Irish lumpers' and were high in protein.  The potatoes they ate were their main protein source.  Hands up who didn't realise that when the Irish potato blight struck, it wiped out their main protein source?

So with modern wheat so much higher in gluten, mostly through planting/propagating natural variants until very recently when you could create the variants in a lab rather than finding them in a field, how do we know that all biblical wheat had gluten at all?  Obviously most did or the biblical explanations of bread wouldn't have made sense, but that doesn't prove there were no everyday naturally-occurring varieties with virtually no gluten, and certainly none detectable per slice of bread.

Which is why I think this sort of thing is a load of twaddle.  I reckon if I take bread, what should be going through my mind shouldn't be whether it's proper communion bread or whatever, but whether I'm worthy to receive it.

And I'm probably not because I stopped going to mass because I got angry with the Vatican over the church's priorities, and also I decided I was a hypocrite myself because I felt I'd never be able to take communion next to IDS, but who am I to know what he ever said in confession or whether my conscience is clearer than his?  How could I go into church, listen to teachings that tell me 'judge not that ye be not judged' and then think 'I don't think he should be taking communion'?

So I'll argue the logic of Vatican pronouncements on stuff like this, but I'll also acknowledge my bias.

huhn

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2017, 03:27:11 PM »
the other interesting thing is gluten intolerance is in the uk by just 1 % and in the middle east is it by 3 to 5 %,  so who says that the bread with  wheat at all?

Fiz

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2017, 01:46:38 PM »
A meal without wine is breakfast.

 >biggergrin<

SunshineMeadows

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 11:00:02 AM »
Huhn,

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sunshine, gluten  are already for  some people in microgram amount deadly, some can have  a small cross contamination,  that means  not even a bread crumb is not aloud. the result of gluten on the system is depending on the person, von malnutrition, to weeks of  sitting on the loo, to get  sick  or even  neurological damage is  known.

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the other interesting thing is gluten intolerance is in the uk by just 1 % and in the middle east is it by 3 to 5 %,  so who says that the bread with  wheat at all?

Thank you I did not know either of those details before.

https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/how-did-the-ancient-israelites-make-bread/

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As a woman in ancient Israel, it was her duty to prepare the meals. Bread was such a common part of their diet that it was often referred to as food in general. Thus milling and preparing the wheat or flour was also a major responsibility.

Keeping women in the kitchen?

Lankou,

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A meal without wine is breakfast.

LOL I thought that was beer? Interestingly enough is it true that back in olden times that drinking beer or wine was safer than drinking water?


ATurtle,

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as the Roman Catholic Church is a collection of diocese in which the Bishop is the main authority and interpreter of the will of the church.

My general impression is that African Catholicism is very different from that practised in most of Europe. I wonder do the bishops think emphasising the past and how things should be done help keep women out of the priesthood?


Sunny.

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Hands up who didn't realise that when the Irish potato blight struck, it wiped out their main protein source?

My hand is up.

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  I reckon if I take bread, what should be going through my mind shouldn't be whether it's proper communion bread or whatever, but whether I'm worthy to receive it.


Good point  >star<

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How could I go into church, listen to teachings that tell me 'judge not that ye be not judged' and then think 'I don't think he should be taking communion'?

It is because we are supposed to follow that as individuals and leave God to sort out who the hypocrites are. The problem is as I get older I see bad people prospering more and more whilst good people end up poor and burnt out.

 >bighugs<

NeuralgicNeurotic

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Re: The Pope
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 07:55:31 PM »
Quote
Hands up who didn't realise that when the Irish potato blight struck, it wiped out their main protein source?

Main food source, full stop. By the mid 1830s folks were eating anything up to 6kg of the things per day. Lumpers were popular as a cultivar because they produced very high yields, needed little fertilizer, and grew well in the kind of poor-quality marginal land that hard-pressed people had to cultivate for subsistence.

As an aside, they taste grim. Had the dubious pleasure of trying one at the Comber Potato Festival. Not an experience I'd like to repeat.