Ouch Too - a place for and about disabled people.

Forum => Disability Talk => Topic started by: Fiz on July 10, 2018, 01:02:38 PM

Title: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on July 10, 2018, 01:02:38 PM
I was pondering this today as someone is presently hoping to qualify for a motability vehicle and are hoping that the process of time needed going through their tribunal for the award will gather enough back payment due and them taking out a loan will be enough to buy (their word) an AMG-GT Mercedes sports car through the motability scheme.

I was wondering how people felt about people being able to drive top of the range elite vehicles on the motability scheme?

Getting in and out of cars is painful for me and I think sports cars are low (though my knowledge of cars is scant) so I'd not be physically able to use one myself. I dread to think what the deposit would be.

I guess it's totally up to the person what vehicle they drive. If they can afford the deposit then I guess the monthly mobility payment from PIP is exactly no different whatever car you choose. But it did give me food for thought. The prices for the Mercedes AMG-GT sports car start from £99,245 and another £10,000 will get you the same but as a convertible. That would be one hell of a deposit.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on July 10, 2018, 01:52:53 PM
I see no reason why people should not be able drive whatever motability car they like provided it does not result in a reduction of the availability to others.

My understanding is that the difference in the cost of the car is largely dealt with by the deposit.

As motability is a form of leasing it can be some otherwise expensive models seem relatively cheap if they maintain a higher resale price at the end of the lease.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: neurochick on July 10, 2018, 02:26:41 PM
That's not how the Motability Scheme works so this person who is waiting for a tribunal result and planning to buy that particular Mercedes is going to to be sorely disappointed.  They certainly won't be able to get it through Motability. You can't buy a car through the Scheme and you can't contract-hire whatever you fancy.  The option that used to exist to buy a car on Hire Purchase via the Scheme was scrapped some time ago too.  The up-front payment you now have to pay for a more expensive contract hire car isn't a deposit either - its a one-off, sunk payment that you don't get back even though you don't ever own the car.

WAVs aside (where the provisions are slightly different) you can now only sign up for a 3 year contract hire deal from Motability. All you get is the use (hire) of a car for 3 years. And you can only sign up for one of the cars that is actually offered on the Scheme - those are relatively limited.  Cars that are not included in the Motability list are not available to you.  You never own the car - you only have the use of it for 3 years and then have to hand it back at the end of the 3 year period. There are very limited circumstances where the lease can be extended for a further year.

The makes and models available are limited to cars with a maximum, new, dealer list price of approx £30k. Motability renegotiate with the car manufacturers every quarter so the car list, prices, and costs change every quarter.  A car of that rough value (£30k) requires you to pay around £3000 as an upfront payment (which you don't get back) and then your weekly PIP allowance in full for the 3 years.  The scheme used to contain a much, much bigger selection of considerably more expensive cars with massive up front payments but the coalition government put paid to that - Motability cut the selection to cars massively to only those with a maximum one-off up-front payment of £1000.  That has gradually crept back up to the much more useful max £3000 up-front payment that applies now.

Personally I think that you should be able to contract hire whatever car you want via Motability if you are prepared, and able, to afford the up-front payment that it demands.  People all have very different needs and desires when it comes to cars and lifestyles.  If you are working in a good job, have hobbies requiring a big car or have plenty of cash from savings or a compensation award for example, why shouldn't you have a big, fancy, expensive or specialist car?  Its makes no financial difference to Motability - the individual is paying up-front for the additional costs of an expensive car.  Not everyone who receives PIP has state benefits as their only income or has a job with a low income and there's no reason the Scheme can't cater for everyone regardless of income and personal circumstances. 

Motability, the DWP and the government should be doing a much better job of the PR so that the public are no longer under this ridiculous illusion that people on PIP get free cars and that would go a long way to removing the ranting, right-wing, Daily Mail reader attitudes about folk getting fancy free cars which is, of course, based on pure myth.   
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: SashaQ on July 10, 2018, 08:35:33 PM
Well said neurochick - yes, the motability scheme is basically just worry free motoring (rather than a free car), that they offer a package including servicing and breakdown cover in exchange for the mobility component and any initial payment, and then the car is replaced before it is likely to become unreliable.

The scheme works well for me, as some hand controls are now included in the rental price and fitted at the dealership, so that  is much easier than in the past when I had to buy the controls separately and arrange for someone to drop the car off at the fitters for me, then take me there so I could drive the car home...  I do low mileage commuting to work, so I get the lease extension too, which again is less hassle over five years (although they do need me to take the car in for MOTs as well as services during that period).

The scheme doesn't work well for everyone, though - eg it is a potential disadvantage to not own the car at the end of the lease period...
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on July 11, 2018, 10:10:42 AM
The person I know says "buy" the car but knows it's never theirs, they've had motability vehicles while they were on high rate mobility on DLA and in fact their current high class BMW is about to be collected as their MR maintained their standard mobility award and even if they accept the verbal offer of enhanced mobility it won't arrive in letter from in time to prevent this car being collected. I'm unsure what deposit he paid for the BMW.

Out of interest I've just used the motability car finder search tool to find out which Mercedes are available and for what deposits and choosing them to be listed with the highest deposit first it seems the Mercedes-Benz Vito 2.1CDI Tourer SELECT 119 and the deposit for this is £11,746

I agree though, because the person with the disability is paying the deposit and the amount the government mobility element of PIP or DLA remains the same whether you use all the benefit on a vehicle or part of the benefit, the government pays no more so it's totally up to the disabled user to choose which vehicle they use. I guess that particular Mercedes-Benz would raise a few eyebrows if they knew it was a motability vehicle as most of the public are unaware of the deposits!
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: neurochick on July 11, 2018, 10:46:04 AM
The Mercedes Benz Vito is a van - its listed as a WAV vehicle by Motability and the normal car rules don't apply to those (as I mentioned in my message).  They are much more expensive initially, as are the adaptations people will typically have to fund, so the up front payments are much larger than the cars on the scheme and the initial leases are for 5 years not 3.

If their BMW is taken away part way through their lease in the circumstances described, they will receive a pro-rated refund of their initial up-front payment. 

 
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on July 11, 2018, 05:58:29 PM
Yes you're right neurochick, the search system on the motability site having a drawing of a car instead of a photo of the vehicle confused me together with my extremely small knowledge of cars gets me easily confuzzled! The most expensive Mercedes-Benz car they do is their B class 2.1d B220 AMG Line 4wd 5dr for a deposit of £3,299 which is far more achievable! He's been told if he takes his BMW back to the dealers he will receive £250 but if they collect it from his home he won't get anything. I hope he chooses to return it himself.

I haven't looked to see what if any cars there are that use less than the weekly PIP mobility allowance. It is interesting.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: bulekingfisher on July 18, 2018, 05:13:37 PM
Hello ouchers

I think people on mobility schemes should be able to drive luxury cars because we are only human + a two tier scheme is only another wedge to stop us been equal to A.B people +  I thought this whole newsletter (OUCHTOO was the first rung on the ladder to fair play
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on July 19, 2018, 06:52:06 AM
Newsletter?

Ultimately it's not the government paying for any luxury cars via the mobility allowance because everyone with high mobility needs receives the same amount and it's that same amount that is paying for whatever vehicle is chosen each month. It's the customer paying the extra money out of their savings as the deposits for high range cars is more and what anyone does with their savings is their business.

I put on Facebook a few years ago that I was having a lovely lunch in a café in a rural area a few miles away with a friend. My sister quickly contacted me worried that I shouldn't put that on Facebook. I didn't get what she meant at first but she was thinking someone might report me to the DWP for having lunch out and where has the money come from?! I told her my friend had treated me (we alternate who pays and it had been her turn) and my sister said I should edit my status to mention it was lovely to be treated by my friend.

If the public can panic that someone on benefits can afford a sandwich and a cup of tea I can only imagine what they'd think about a Mercedes on the drive/adjacent disabled parking space near home.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Monic1511 on July 19, 2018, 08:23:22 PM
If the public can panic that someone on benefits can afford a sandwich and a cup of tea I can only imagine what they'd think about a Mercedes on the drive/adjacent disabled parking space near home.

I still hear from people this type of phrase "I worked all my days and now your telling me all Im getting is £73/week. Why cant I get a car and everything paid for me like the person down the street who goes on holiday to spain 4 times a year and has the latest gear."  I then say "Well you could have that as well if you didn't mind being up to your eyes in debt, the holidays are paid by provident loans, the latest gear is on hire from bright house and they get the same money as you."


As for facebook, many dwp cheats are first spotted when they post their holiday snaps, an employability advisor who works near me routinely checks facebook and can tell which clients are coming in and who is gonna cancel by their posts.  Its a great surveillance tool especially as its all disclosed by the person themselves.

As for the query re fancy cars - all the fancy cars I see are 6 inches from the floor, if you can get in and out a car that low wouldn't it be fair to assume you can get off the floor unaided, get out of a bath unaided - oh quick lets review their PIP award and remove the points for washing and bathing.

Don't panic but Im a pessimist at heart - after having had contact with DWP decision makers for too many years  >lol<
 >dove<
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: SashaQ on July 20, 2018, 09:33:01 AM
"if you can get in and out a car that low wouldn't it be fair to assume you can get off the floor unaided"

Interesting point!  I've only got short spazzy legs, and I have the problem that the average person is getting taller so even small cars have seats that are higher in general to accommodate them - I'm not getting any taller, though, as I'm not an average person...  One year I was seriously contemplating a sports car because I couldn't find a small car I could climb into...  Luckily I was able to get a Motability lease extension for a couple of years and the next time I looked the small cars had better seat height adjusters so I was OK.

I can indeed get off the floor unaided, but a bath is a different beast... <laugh>
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: ally on July 20, 2018, 11:16:06 AM
I can't get in and out of sports cars.  Nor, can I do the same with large 4 x4.  My son had an Aston Martin, which although was lovely, I couldn't access it. My daughter in law has a Toyota Land Cruiser. I could only get in and out of that by balancing on a crate, which I Wouldnt do. Therefore, I have no idea how some disabled manage with these types,of cars,  without a risk of an injury?  I try not to judge when I see them in disabled car park bays..  The land cruisers are very difficult to park in normal bays due to their size. Personally, I wouldn't have either of them. Prestigious yes, but, not practical for me.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on July 20, 2018, 03:56:39 PM
It took me what seemed like forever to choose the car that would be best for me. I was really impressed with the amount of detail on the motability car finder site. It quoted sill height, seat height, angle the door opens at, how/if seat adjustment height likewise steering wheel. I found no car was perfect. I have never been in a sports car but I've walked past cars where I've wondered how people can get in down there so I'm assuming they were sports cars. I have two people offer me lifts occasionally, one has a medium sized Nissan and I can get in and out of that okay if I concentrate on turning my body the full 90° before getting up and in etc. The other friend who has offered me more lifts has a smaller car. I find it painful to get in and out of because the seat is too low but the door opens a full 90° which is helpful and I have a solid structure therefore to bare some of my weight in my arms rather than my back.

I think the only thing I'd change about my chosen car for my benefit would be the door opening wider. It only opens at 68° and that's not ideal for getting in or out without having to twist my spine but in all other ways it meets my needs perfectly. I'm really thankful that soon I will be able to leave the house and see people so am very blessed with what I've got. Through my childhood my mother set up a tradition of naming a car using the letters in the car's registration plate and I was going to do the same when I know mine but I've decided to call it Baraka which is swahili for blessing. After being stuck in my house for so long never seeing anyone it's definitely going to be a Baraka. Several things worry me, learning to drive an automatic, learning technology when I'm a technophobe and going anywhere where I might see people I know having been a recluse so long.

I'm nervous about driving an automatic (although as the garage I'm ordering through deals only with motability I'm sure the salesman will be used to nerves and will explain things slowly and clearly and not mind further questions) and all of the new controls or technology that I may never understand. I'm going to ask the man at the garage to sync my phone to the car's handsfree system and ask him how I make and receive calls. I make and receive a couple of calls a month so it won't get much use! The blurb says you can also text, I don't understand how. Not handsfree surely.

All I wanted was a car to get me from A to B reliably, is comfortable to sit in and not painful to drive and isn't too painful to get in and out of. Mine meets the first two things fully. Going to the funeral last Friday taught me long journeys are also a thing of the past, I took double the maximum dose of morphine when I got home and it still took me an hour to be able to lie down. But to a shop/chemist/post office is fine. I can't imagine going back to church, too many people. Unless I go when no services are on.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on July 21, 2018, 10:30:20 AM
Don't be nervous about driving an automatic. Most typical automatics are very easy. Some allow you to choose the gears but you can ignore all that stuff if you choose.

Select 'D' drive to go forward, 'R' reverse to go backwards and 'P' park when you stop. Otherwise forget about the gears and no need to worry about clutch control or stalling. Automatics are much easier on the legs in traffic, no clutch to press. One thing you may notice that you will tend use the foot brake more when stopped in traffic. Most autos creep slightly when no accelerator is applied and the foot brake is released. This is usually an advantage particularly starting on upward slopes.

Cars do tend to have all sorts of techy stuff these days but it doesn't generally get in the way of driving. Don't worry if the salesman reels off a host options and settings you may have on some controls. Pretty well all of them can be ignored until you are familiar with the car and can then adjust it as you prefer. Just ensure you know where the light and wiper switches are., although some cars can turn the wipers on automatically.

Enjoy