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Forum => Disability Talk => Topic started by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 07:47:17 PM

Title: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 07:47:17 PM
Edit to add more info to title - Sunshine :-)

In a week when the PM has spoken at the despatch box during PMQs of benefit claimants who have, for whatever reason, contacted her to tell of just how wonderful Universal Credit is for them I have just learnt of the following-

''Minister gives assurances on disability funding and assessments
 
Esther McVey, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, has assured me that PIP assessment concerns are taken seriously and assessors are held to account. I have had a number of constituency cases where initial assessments have been woeful and overturned on appeal. The assessments are carried out by people employed by Capita. I met Esther to discuss the cases on Tuesday and she explained that from now on all assessments would be videoed to ensure disabled people get the benefits they need.

 Repeat assessments for people with severe lifelong conditions will be reduced to a minimum of every ten years.'' Rt Hon Anna Soubry MP  (my change of colour)

Pity May hadn't had a word with Soubry before she opened her mouth at PMQs as it is clear even Soubry's constituency is experiencing problems albeit in the cases referred to she is talking of Pip assessments. I was also a bit surprised to hear that according to McVey all Pip assessments are to be video recorded and that those with life long conditions are not to face reassessments within a period of 10 years, anyone else hear of this?
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 08:58:44 PM
I'm just reading this at the moment,

https://www.disabledgo.com/blog/2018/06/confidentiality-concerns-over-dwps-pledge-to-videotape-pip-assessments/#.W5wRfHLQZLM
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: Monic1511 on September 14, 2018, 09:01:08 PM
I hear lots of stuff but hadn't heard that PIP assessments were to be videoed automatically - popped over to rightsnet and this is the headline

Work and Pensions Committee welcomes government’s positive tone about improving the PIP and ESA assessment process
However, the pace of change in respect of the recommendations the government has accepted is ‘painfully slow’, says Committee chair

The Work and Pensions Committee has welcomed the government’s more positive tone for improving the personal independence payment (PIP) and employment and support allowance (ESA) assessment process.

In its second response to the Committee’s inquiry into PIP and ESA Assessments - in which the Committee found a ‘pervasive lack of trust’ has undermined the operation of PIP and ESA assessments - the government sets out progress it has made towards meeting the Committee’s recommendations since it made its first response in April 2018.

In relation to the Committee’s concerns about problems with mandatory reconsiderations and appeals, the government says that it has -
introduced a form (CRMR1), available for download from gov.uk, for claimants who prefer to dispute a decision in writing;

introduced key 'must do' actions for case managers to ensure that they review evidence that was available at the initial decision stage as well as checking with the claimant as to whether further evidence has since become available;

introduced active case management with a view to ensuring that case managers get the 'right information at the right time' - to include contacting the claimant to explain what information is required to progress their case; and
carried out work to consider feedback about appeals gathered by DWP Presenting Officers, and is also running tests to explore different ways it can improve evidence gathering and the quality of decision making.

In addition, responding to the Committee’s concerns about the difficulty and distress that claimants can experience filling in PIP and ESA application forms, the government confirms its intention to commission external contractors to conduct independent research. It also sets out the steps it has taken to improve the ESA application process - by identifying claimants with alternative format needs at the point of claim and by producing an easy read version of the ESA40 welcome leaflet.

As regards the Committee’s call to address errors in assessment reports, the government says -
‘It should be noted that assessment reports are not, and can never be, verbatim records of what the claimant says during a consultation. Health professionals are not required to capture everything that is said during a consultation. Instead, they listen objectively and capture information that clearly explains the functional impact of the claimants reported conditions. However, all claimants should receive high quality, objective and accurate assessments and the Department strives to achieve this.’

Commenting on the government’s response, chair of the Committee Frank Field said -
‘There is a welcome change of tone in this response which seems to finally begin to acknowledge the deep distress and difficulty PIP and ESA claimants have experienced.

But that counts for little when it still refuses to engage with the huge problems in quality control - the reports riddled with errors and omissions, the huge numbers of overturned decisions, the outsourced contractors that rarely or never hit their targets - and when the pace of the change it is making is painfully slow.

Claiming a benefit to which you are legitimately entitled should never be a humiliating, distressing experience. Government must move now, faster, to make this right.’

For further details see Claiming benefits should never be a humiliating, distressing experience from parliament.uk


sorry was at appeals today and that leaves me brain dead for a while afterwards

Other headlines are
65 per cent of ESA ‘fit for work’ decisions overturned at appeal in quarter to March 2018
New DWP statistics also show that, in July 2018, only 22 per cent of decisions overturned at mandatory reconsideration stage

and

71 per cent of PIP and ESA appeals overturned in favour of claimants
New Ministry of Justice statistics also highlight that a general increase in the overturn rate of appeals has been driven by a six percentage point increase in successful PIP appeals
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 09:15:59 PM
One issue that's rattling around in my head is when someone is in a situation where they are being interviewed/facing questions in a Police station there are two copied made of the Police recording one of which is made available (least I think it is)  for any defence solicitor of the person being questioned so I wonder if someone being videoed will be given a copy of their PiP assessment video?

Another thought would be when the video recording begins?  I'm wondering will the PiP video recording begin from when the person to be assessed leaves their car in the assessment venue's car park or the waiting room or only from the moment they have arrived in the assessment room itself?  I'm wondering this as many of my pervious assessments have included assessors comments regarding how I made my way back to my car following my assessment.

Another wee sneaky thing about what I have learnt tonight is in regards to the 2 year extension to the Atos/Capita contract, that has hardly seen any mention in the media which given their records is rather odd.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 09:25:37 PM
I've just copied over this,

''Ken Butler, welfare benefits adviser at Disability Rights UK, said the video recording announcement was “unexpected”.

He also had questions about how it would work.

He said: “It raises more questions than answers – will all parts of an examination be videoed? Will videoing be compulsory, or can a disabled person ask to opt-out? Will home visits be recorded? Will copies of videoed assessments be automatically given to claimants?

“Some disabled people may not be happy to be video recorded.”

He added: “It’s not clear why the option to audio record PIP assessments has not been introduced instead.

“This might be acceptable to more disabled people and be easier to introduce more quickly.

“For example, we were told by Capita when it took over the PIP contract that it had the immediate ability to audio record all its assessments, including home visits.” ''

Which tends to suggest, to me, that others are asking similar questions about when these recording begin and end.

Another point is,

''Slater said this week that the announcement on video-recording “appears to be good news and hopefully will solve the problem of inaccurate medical reports and bad decisions”.

But he said he had concerns about confidentiality, particularly around how the videos would be stored, who would be allowed to access them and what DWP would be able to use them for.

He said that current guidance states that assessors cannot use information in their report that has been told to them in confidence during a PIP assessment.

But the current consent form for audio recordings says that “DWP may request a copy of the recording at any time”, without the form saying who at DWP and for what purpose.'' Slater works with or for the DNS.

I can't help but feel every claimant should be entitled to leave any videoed assessment with a copy of the recording at the time of assessment and not told they might receive one in the post. Given this government's history and that of the private assessing companies involved I would not put it past them to doctor recordings.

Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: Monic1511 on September 14, 2018, 09:36:28 PM
A police station is an interview under caution so DWP are never going to accept the comparison with recording of a PIP or ESA assessment.  As for when it starts its likely to be when the assessor moves back in to the room and says to the person I will now turn on the recording.   In one way I don't see the point as the appeal tribunals will not sit and watch the assessment and then make a decision, nor will the decision maker watch the recording.
If you say the assessment being videoed is to prove accuracy I don't see it working, we all watch the same TV but come away with different impressions.  Yes you can say I never said that - prove I did but that just irritates the appeal panels - they want to know why you haven't complained about inaccuracy months earlier

The only time the video is likely to be seen will be in a complaints process or by the agencies training staff etc.


The Scottish government is getting control of PIP and wants local practitioners to do the medicals - fine if you have a good relationship with your GP but we have several who despise their clients - bi polar people parked on methadone with no access to mental health treatment or assessment.  GP's are overwhelmed with medical work never mind doing dwp assessments

signing off for the night  >zzz<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 09:40:22 PM
Just found this little snippet,

''In order to protect claimants from security risks and potential loss of personal data, we only make e-mail available as a channel of application to disabled PIP claimants that are unable to use the telephone independently, or read our letters and for whom other alternative formats are unsuitable. Before a PIP claimant applies through e-mail, they are informed of the potential security risks.''

taken from, - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmworpen/986/98602.htm

Say's to me the government are well aware of there being on-line security threats, so why then are they so insistent on claims being made on-line?

Monic, given evidence gathered during a WCA/PiP assessment can be used where a claimant is accused of benefit fraud I would think it right that a claimant has a copy of such recordings.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this
Post by: JLR2 on September 14, 2018, 09:51:59 PM
Yet another wee thought, under the previous non videoed assessments it was down to the assessor to write his/her report and that would, in theory at least, be based on what s/he learnt in the course of the assessment. With a video recording of an assessment might there be a chance that rather than the assessment being based on the assessment assessor's opinion alone, it is put before other assessors, say 2 or 3 assessors, where they decide between them what they think should be the claimant's assessment outcome?  Just a thought.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 15, 2018, 02:34:29 PM
Good thread with a lot to read  >tah< I am not able to read everything on the links but all the same it is good to have them easily accessible.

I agree with Monic that when people view the same piece of video they wont necessarily make the same conclusions about what happened and why? However, as long as there is an opt out option it might make some claimants feel less upset about the assessment process and more confident about the outcome.

JLR,

What you said about the car park is interesting because my understanding is our assessments start as soon as we leave our homes eg can we manage the journey. I am pretty sure when I had my first ESA assessment the assessor watched me from the point of arriving in the car, getting out of the car and into the building. ALso I have mentioned noticing a large floor two wave mirror in the waiting before and most of us know things live how long you can site in a hard chair were being assessed as you waited.

Monic ,

Quote
The Scottish government is getting control of PIP and wants local practitioners to do the medicals - fine if you have a good relationship with your GP but we have several who despise their clients - bi polar people parked on methadone with no access to mental health treatment or assessment.  GP's are overwhelmed with medical work never mind doing dwp assessments

Good point  >star< GPs already have patients who end up talking to them about their worry over their upcoming PIP or ESA claim. I have found myself asking about it even though I have yet to be called in for the PIP transfer.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 15, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Hi Sunshine, my GP has a habit of asking me following my appointment ending when I'm heading off to Berlin, I hope he's not annoyed about my visiting Berlin.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 16, 2018, 08:41:39 AM
I dont see why your GP would be annoyed about you going to Berlin. It is more likely that it is just a personal detail he knows about you and comes to at the end of the appointment.

 :-)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 16, 2018, 09:28:32 AM
I suppose I'm just that little bit wary about things. As Monic was saying, ''fine if you have a good relationship with your GP''  it would only take my GP to, on being asked to carry out a wca assessment on me, to think of how I have over recent years been visiting Berlin 3 times a year for 4 weeks when he is knocking his pan in at his surgery and only managing the regular holiday breaks most folk in work manage.

In a roundabout way my friend's father passing away will help me reduce my visits to Berlin as my friend will be able to visit Scotland. Mind you having said that the way I'm hearing things in the news about UK/European flights, travel between the UK/Europe and passport validity following Brexit things might get a bit complicated visitor visas and the like.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 16, 2018, 04:58:43 PM
The problem with a claimant going holiday is (wrongly in my opinion) that dwp portray that person as able to cope with changes, able to mobilise and able to deal with people.  If you have any points for mobility or social skills don’t mention holidays.  One person had delusions that they were on pilgrimage to 4 European countries and had convinced the gp they were going, none of it was true but the panel refused to give additional points for going unfamiliar places as they believe the claimant had been all over Europe.

Information is great but be careful how it’s presented
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 16, 2018, 09:32:26 PM
Thanks Monic for letting me know of this as it is something that had not crossed my mind. As best I can remember I ticked the no boxes on my forms when it came to getting around in unfamiliar places or journeys.

Don't know what it is but I find myself feeling low tonight. I keep looking around my house trying to think of how/where to start tidying up the place. Every flat surface has clutter on it and all I seem able to do is move the clutter from one place to another. It's a nice enough wee house but the lack of storage cupboards has me looking to see where next I bang some nails in the walls to put up more shelves. I'd really like to create more floor space, you know see what the colour of my carpet is >biggrin<

Given the amounts of A4 paper I have, letters from the DWP, NHS and various others I need a filing cabinet (floor to ceiling)  Apart from the paper work I've masses of electrical wiring, chargers from old devices and USB cables all thrown into wee boxes and under the bed or in drawers and of course I experience the same problem as everyone else, that of never being able to find these cables when I go looking for one.

Maybe I'll think of something tomorrow.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
I have to admit to despairing at some of the comments on this thread. It has taken years of campaigning by many people, me, and organisations to get the DWP to acknowledge that a claimant has a right under the law to have benefit related medicals/assessments sound recorded and videod. That is a right, it will not be comulsory.
It reasons for the campaign were to stop claimaints being "verballed," and whoever does the medicals/assessments from lying in the report to the DWP.

Benefits and Work have just posted this. (live links at link.)

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3802-no-progress-on-pip-video-recording-or-claim-form-improvements

No progress on PIP video recording or claim form improvements
Category: Latest news
 Created: 17 September 2018
The House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee has slammed the government for failing to make any progress on video recording PIP assessments or improving PIP and ESA claim forms, arguing that the DWP “still refuses to engage with the huge problems” connected with claiming the benefits.

Back in June of this year we highlighted a statement by Sarah Newton, Minister of State for Disabled People, who claimed that the DWP were about to pilot the videoing of PIP assessments. The intention was to make “. . . video recording of the PIP assessment a standard part of the process . . . We will be piloting videoing the assessment with a view to then rolling this out across Great Britain.”

Though this decision appeared to have been made without any form of consultation with claimants and, judging from the comments we have received, many would prefer audio recordings only.

The government gave assurances that they would carry out this work following a highly critical report on PIP and ESA by the Commons committee, which was based in part on an unprecedented number of responses from claimants to a call for evidence.

However, three months on and there is no sign of the pilot even having begun.

Nor is there any evidence of work being done on make the claim forms for PIP or ESA any more user-friendly, another undertaking given by the minister.

Whilst welcoming the latest response from the government, which they have published on their website, the Work and Pensions Committee is now asking for a detailed progress report on these issues.

Frank Field MP, Chair of the Committee, said:

"There is a welcome change of tone in this response which seems to finally begin to acknowledge the deep distress and difficulty PIP& ESA claimants have experienced.

“But that counts for little when it still refuses to engage with the huge problems in quality control—the reports riddled with errors and omissions, the huge numbers of overturned decisions, the outsourced contractors that rarely or never hit their targets—and when the pace of the change it is making is painfully slow.

“Claiming a benefit to which you are legitimately entitled should never be a humiliating, distressing experience. Government must move now, faster, to make this right."

You can read more on the parliament website.



Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 17, 2018, 08:52:40 PM
''I have to admit to despairing at some of the comments on this thread''

I'm not sure quite what comments have caused your despair Lankou, for myself I have only concerns that any videos recorded be duplicated at time of recording with one copy being given to the claimant involved. I think in the main when the Police have recorded interviews with someone the recorded person has a copy made available for their solicitor/lawyer.

All WCA assessments should be at the very least audio recorded and in being so recorded allow a comparison to be made with an assessor's written report/assessment.

I remember two issues with previous assessments I have gone through which I feel could be quite relevant in regards to videoing of assessments. The first happened in the early 1990's, the assessor's report made a comment in relation to my appearance, ''The claimant appeared rather unkempt in his appearance''  I was not applying for the position as his daughter's next boyfriend this remark was uncalled for and the tribunal to which I made my appeal to agreed, the second issue relates to the comment by the GP assessor whom carried out my last assessment for ESA, as I entered the assessment room he remarked to me, ''You look like someone I could trust''.

I've mentioned these two experiences to highlight just how someone's appearance can have an impact on the outcome of their assessment and feel that beyond simply what a claimant says in answer to an assessor's questions or the evidence that the claimant being assessed has provided their appearance will, in the case of videoed assessments, have an impact on their assessment decisions. There could be cases where the claimant is a heavily tattooed person or perhaps say a woman who has borrowed a nicer outfit than she herself owns, maybe from her sister, because she feels she needs to look as tidy as she can only to find that the personal view of the assessor is allowed, even subconsciously, to influence their assessment of the claimant. My last assessor even noted and reported that I could handle a pen as I took notes, (his name and so on)  so there is more to videoing assessments than might cross someone's mind at first thought. There are things like were a claimant wears tie up shoes, 'can tie shoes'  or were I to wear my dress shoes polished to parade ground standards would be very much noticed and noted by an assessor.

Talking of how claimants dress for their assessments brought to my mind another issue where videoing is involved, in the course of many assessments claimants may be asked to remove items of clothing, I was asked to display the damage to my right ankle and the scarring from the operation relating to my knee cap dislocation, how might a woman feel about the security of videoed recordings where she may have been required to remove clothing to particular points of undress?

I think until they (the DWP) have organised the audio recording for all WCA assessments the videoing should be limited.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 18, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
JLR2 I think it must be me who has caused the despair as I haven’t been overwhelmingly upbeat about recording assessments but my view point is that of a representative at appeals.
Maybe I’ll get an explanation and then I can explain my comments.  >dove<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 18, 2018, 09:59:46 PM
Monic, recording assessments really ought never to have been something that folk found themselves calling for and I feel only came about through the chalk and cheese differences in the assessments experienced by claimants and the report put to decision makers. This might come over as a bit daft but I was thinking had the DM's to been given assessments which truly reflected the original assessments they would have been in a far better position to come to fair decisions and many people would not have faced the nightmare they have.

It is all too easy for me to talk of recorded assessments as some sort of cure for bad/poor assessment reporting but as I'm typing away it crosses my mind that although I can hear clearly my thoughts how my accent or spoken word may sound in a recording could lead to some folk trying to work out what I'm saying might not be so easy. I have experienced problems trying to understand my own sister at times when we have been talking on the phone.

A while back I was invited to chat on BBC Radio Scotland's phone in and as is my habit I recorded my tuppence-worth, well when I played it back after the call I sounded terrible, certainly nowhere near as clear as it did in my own head during the phone call. So how things might sound in a WCA recording could likewise not be quite as clear as I'd like to think it was.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 19, 2018, 07:46:15 AM
Small correction making now not underlining added by me- Sunshine

I understand why folk want them recorded, it’s supposed to be a fail safe, what I wonder is how the recording would be used. DM don’t watch recordings unless they’re in the fraud unit. They have extensive caseloads and are pressured to make a decision. Next stage at mr will the second dm watch it and read the comments “x walked 35m to interview room without stopping “. And reply with walked with no apparent difficulty, would be reasonable to asssume can walk 200m”.

Next stage is appeal panels, I’ve had people bring X-rays , mobile phone footage of their child’s behaviour and panels refuse to consider it as the X-ray can’t be copied and the footage could be of anyone filmed at any time.

How do you assess hidden disabilities like E, diabetes etc and as you mentioned how will the assessor in Cardiff understand the responses given by a Geordie or Glaswegian .

I still believe the criteria is the first part of the problem, yes assessments are flawed, I read plenty of them and we have a list of repeat offenders which our boss feeds back. If your assessment is inaccurate then complain. By not complaining you give it the veneer of credibility.   One appeal judge starts his appeal with “ is the assessment report a true and accurate record yes or no” if you say no his next comment is have you complained? Eh, no, then he assumes that it must be true else you’d have complained.  I know that’s wrong but that’s the angle he takes after all you have put the effort into taking your case to appeal.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 19, 2018, 10:25:19 AM
Lankou,

Thank you for posting more information about this, it is good to know being recorded is not going to be compulsory.

I had not heard that the possibility of assessments being videoed was being looked at so my initial thoughts came from personal experience and the fact I would not like being videoed. Of course this does not mean I would say no one else should be able to choose that option.

JLR and Monic made some good points  >thumbsup<

Are you able to tell me if the videos of the claimants are going to be used for training purposes, in the same way a call to customer service can be?
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 19, 2018, 10:49:07 AM
JLR,

Quote
The first happened in the early 1990's, the assessor's report made a comment in relation to my appearance, ''The claimant appeared rather unkempt in his appearance''

How a claimant looks can affect the points you might get because it speaks to at least a couple of things. Please don't think this is directed at you personally.

- is the claimant physically able to keep themself clean and tidy.
- is the claimant socially aware of the the need to be clean and tidy in public/social situations.

If I got to an assessment with a hairstyle and colour that is high maintenance it might be assumed that I can go to the hairdressers frequently, so can manage in social situations and with my head being moved around eg blow drying and straightening. On the flip side I know if I don't condition and use styling products on my hair it turns into a frizzy birds nest and makes me look unwell. This leads me to think that videoing might assumed by the DWP to be a way of weeding out the (very small) number claimants who are laying it on to get money they are not entitled to. I say this because body language plays a big part of who we each are.

Everyone,

One good thing about having a video of the assessment is it should be more difficult for the DWP to create an artificial intelligence to decide who gets what  >yikes< >erm< ;-)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 19, 2018, 11:42:05 AM
(https://i0.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/170317-Tory-disability-policy.jpg?w=480&ssl=1)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 19, 2018, 12:02:06 PM
Lankou,

Yes it can feel like that is what it comes down to however whilst I was away I did visit other groups where there are more people saying they got PIP. The people who manage the groups encourage members to post their outcomes whatever they are.

It can be difficult to get a balance between talking about DWP, Government and individual assessors wrongdoing and making sure we dont add to the stress by me failing to mention that things can go smoothly for some people.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: SteveX on September 20, 2018, 12:44:36 PM
I can understand why a lot of people would like this but speaking personally I would not, I do not want to be recorded video or audio.
I'm a very private person and I don't even use facebook/twitter or own a smartphone because I don't want companies logging my data and recording things I do or send.  heck, I've been 'online' since the late 90's and to this day I've not uploaded a single image of myself and never will.    If this sounds stupid and paranoid, then that's fine but it's the way I am.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 20, 2018, 08:04:37 PM
Steve
its not stupid or paranoid, its personal preference,  I have just had a fight with one of the church section leaders as he wants to take pictures of the choir for a publication and put photos on facebook, I refused to have my picture take and if I see any with me in them I report them to FB and get them taken down.  I never gave permission for my image to be posted on a public platform.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 20, 2018, 08:06:20 PM
''If this sounds stupid and paranoid''

Far from it Stevie, I used FB for a very short contact with a mate in Berlin and very quickly closed down and removed the account from them as I too do not like the way FB harvests users info. Heck I don't even use my Co-op card as I'm tired of hearing about the way they track customers purchasing histories.

''This leads me to think that videoing might assumed by the DWP to be a way of weeding out the (very small) number claimants who are laying it on to get money they are not entitled to''

Sunshine that has me thinking of footage shown on a BBC investigative programme, of which the name escapes me, which showed WCA assessors talking about assessments they had carried out. In what I saw the assessors were happily mocking some of those they had assessed. I could imagine Atos assessors sitting around a monitor laughing at a claimant as they are made to perform various circus tricks during an assessment. Perhaps a wheelchair user being asked to mobilise around the room out of their wheelchair or having them attempt to pick up a large box from the floor.

There could also be situations where rather than just the assessor completing his/her assessment report on the basis of what s/he has seen and heard s/he plays the recording to other assessors asking their opinions. I feel without a doubt the appearance of claimants at assessment will carry a lot of weight in the reported opinion of the assessor provided to the DWP decision maker.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 21, 2018, 07:18:16 AM
Beats head against wall.  Right the videoing and sound recording will be carried out using the same kit as it used for police interviews under caution. That is twin recording with embedded time markers in real time. (That prevents editing.)
One recording to the claimant and one to the DWP.
The recording will NOT be compulsory for the claimant.

Frankly I think any claimant will need to think long and hard before considering to refuse being recorded.

The DWP has been fighting for years to prevent what is a legal right for a claimant to have ANY assessment videod and recorded.
Because it will stop the "verballing," of claimants and lies being told in the written reports.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 21, 2018, 07:58:39 AM
''Right''  so leave it to mandatory audio recording.

Has anyone heard of the set up for videoing assessments?  By which I mean are assessors shown in the recording or is it only the assessed claimant?
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 21, 2018, 08:25:37 AM
''Right''  so leave it to mandatory audio recording.

Has anyone heard of the set up for videoing assessments?  By which I mean are assessors shown in the recording or is it only the assessed claimant?

It will be the same set up as a police interview under caution.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 21, 2018, 08:34:29 AM
A claimant sitting across the desk from detectives, as in Police interviews, is not likely to be the set up of an assessor carrying out an assessment of someone's ability/fitness to work.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 21, 2018, 08:58:53 AM
A claimant sitting across the desk from detectives, as in Police interviews, is not likely to be the set up of an assessor carrying out an assessment of someone's ability/fitness to work.

The entire room vuisible fixed camera.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 21, 2018, 07:33:28 PM
''Right''  so leave it to mandatory audio recording.

Has anyone heard of the set up for videoing assessments?  By which I mean are assessors shown in the recording or is it only the assessed claimant?

It will be the same set up as a police interview under caution.

That description sounds scary and some will interpret it as treating an assessment as the same as a criminal investigation.   I hope its not that way as the pressure on both claimant and assessor will be hellish.

I do understand why people want it recorded but not sure I'd be so open about me health problems if I suspected that the information would be viewed by anyone else.   I know that's not the purpose of recording them but you can foresee the time when the agencies involved ask for a chance to review to see why a claimant was awarded later but the assessor thought it'd be a no.


If the DVD was given to the claimant who brought it to me as an appeal rep I'd have a major problem watching it - our work computers/laptops no longer have a DVD/CD player in them and when I need to listen to a statement of reasons recording I need to take it home and listen at home.  Not sure I'd be happy doing that with an assessment.


There must be a better way than this.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 21, 2018, 07:43:27 PM



If the DVD was given to the claimant who brought it to me as an appeal rep I'd have a major problem watching it - our work computers/laptops no longer have a DVD/CD player in them and when I need to listen to a statement of reasons recording I need to take it home and listen at home.  Not sure I'd be happy doing that with an assessment.


There must be a better way than this.

Sorry but people have fough the DWP for a long time for claimants to have assessments videod and sound recorded. Claimants have a legal right for that to be done. I repeat it is not compulsory if a claimant does wnat it done.
Anyone who represents claimants at trubunals should at the very least have the kit to view claimants copy.

The reason for the campaign to get assessments recorded is to stop the verballing of claimants and lies being told about claimants in subsequent written reports.

I suspect when the system is rolled out the need for claimants to appeal will drop dramatically.

(Frankly I am beginning to think those of us who have been campaigning for years about the issue have been wasting our time.)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 21, 2018, 08:54:52 PM
We already need the ability to listen to the statement of reasons but that hasn’t stopped our IT section supplying us with laptops with no cd/dvd player.

If the Scottish Government ever gets its act together re pip assessments it’ll change here but it could go either way as hidden disability doesn’t show up well on camera, how many kids with adhd get labelled bad behaviour rather than a health problem.

I don’t think the campaign has been wasted as we all have to get the system sorted and it’s only done by campaigns.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 22, 2018, 08:01:38 AM
''Frankly I am beginning to think those of us who have been campaigning for years about the issue have been wasting our time.''

Come on Lankou, what's that all about? 

As Monic says videoing will not show hidden disabilities. Besides that many of the complaints about what an assessor has provided to decision makers in their assessment report has come down to the claimant arguing they never said this or that or that the assessor never asked about something they have alluded to having asked about. Audio may be able to provide a tone of the assessment, whether the assessor or the claimant was threatening or intimidating in their questions or answers.

I can only guess Monic, that any visually recorded assessments will be recorded to memory sticks, one worry that comes to mind is the security levels in which the assessing companies or the DWP hold these recordings in.

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 22, 2018, 08:40:42 AM


I can only guess Monic, that any visually recorded assessments will be recorded to memory sticks, one worry that comes to mind is the security levels in which the assessing companies or the DWP hold these recordings in.

The recordings will be carried out using the home office approve system used for police interviews under caution.
ANY breach of confidentialty by either the DWP or a contractor is a VERY serious criminal offence.
The campaign to get assessments recorded is to stop the current verballing of claimants and lies being told by assessors in reports.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: ally on September 22, 2018, 10:09:35 AM
If Monic got a copy of my assessment to listen to, she wouldn't hear me at all. It was the assessor and My husband that did all the talking. It would be hoped that anyone watching my video had a good knowledge of sign language.   However, i doubt any assessor. DM, or, welfare advisor would be proficient in sign language, so they could understand,  and, follow what was being signed. Some interpreters employed by the NHS And, the DWP,  don't have medical knowledge.  I've had interpreters in hospitals with me, where I've had to explain about my medical issues during the consultation,  as they had no idea what the Consultant was talking about.   Therefore,  I'm not sure how visually recorded assessments would work with deaf claimants? 
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 22, 2018, 10:10:29 AM
Lankou,

Its good  that we are talking about this though isn't it? After all the people campaigning for this need to take all viewpoints into account. The only way I can see filming working would be to have the videos uploaded to a server and have a high level of security placed on how that information is accessed eg like access to personal bank accounts. DVDs can get be lost or get scratched and become unreadable. Monic already mentioned practical concerns. Do you think the time it would take for a welfare rights would have to take to watch a claimants film footage would have an impact on how many people they could help in anyone day?

I know I took some time out this year nevertheless I would have thought a campaign to get the DWP to allow videoing would have reached the places I was going online but JLR starting this thread was the first I have heard of it. Was it a mainstream campaign could you give me some links so I can see what was said.

Quote
The campaign to get assessments recorded is to stop the current verballing of claimants and lies being told by assessors in reports.

That is a big statement using stop rather than reduce, I know it is only a word but more than most people we know words have consequences.

On a personal note, lots of assumptions get made about Cerebral Palsy and this has meant throughout my lifetime people who have just seen me sitting down and not moving about think I look 'normal'. I know this and so would opt out of the video option and want someone to read how life is for me. My worry is that placing an emphasis on videoing as a good solution to verballing might have people like me thinking it is a good option for them when it isn't.

We have each experienced life differently and it's important for us to share what we 'know' from our point of view.

 >dove< >dove< >dove<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 22, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
Ally,

Quote
Therefore,  I'm not sure how visually recorded assessments would work with deaf claimants?

Good point. It would similarly apply to visually impaired people.

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 22, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
ALL the videoing and sound recording is supposed to stop is the verballing  and lies by assessors, it is NOT a magic bullet to make a silk purse out of the sows ear of the Mansel Aylward version of the biopychosocial model of disability used for both ESA and PIP assessments.

But as the trade union saying goes ask for tuppence take a penny.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 22, 2018, 04:24:10 PM
''ANY breach of confidentialty by either the DWP or a contractor is a VERY serious criminal offence.''

Given we've now seen a group found guilty of an underreporting of a £100,000 spend in the EU referendum fined £400 I doubt the DWP would give a, 4 letter word, about a claimant's confidentiality being breached. Perhaps were such breaches to carry a mandatory prison sentence of no less than a year the DWP might pay heed.

Talking of security were the DWP to be subjected to a ransom-ware attack the damage to the UK benefits system would be catastrophic, in the main for claimants.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 22, 2018, 06:46:15 PM
''ANY breach of confidentialty by either the DWP or a contractor is a VERY serious criminal offence.''

Given we've now seen a group found guilty of an underreporting of a £100,000 spend in the EU referendum fined £400 I doubt the DWP would give a, 4 letter word, about a claimant's confidentiality being breached. Perhaps were such breaches to carry a mandatory prison sentence of no less than a year the DWP might pay heed.

Talking of security were the DWP to be subjected to a ransom-ware attack the damage to the UK benefits system would be catastrophic, in the main for claimants.


Frankly I don't knoiw why I have been bothering about this issue for a very long time, as I appear to have been wasting my time.
The recordings will be protected by patient confidentiality. They will also be protected by the law and anyone breaking it could be subject  to a length jail sentence. (As several police officers have found out.)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 22, 2018, 06:58:30 PM
''Frankly I don't knoiw why I have been bothering about this issue for a very long time, as I appear to have been wasting my time.''

Lankou, I cannot get where you are coming from, none of us on here are against the  audio recording of 'all' WCA assessments and always have been mainly due to the seriously inaccurate assessments provided by the likes of Atos. It was not so long ago that Atos and similar assessment providers were fighting tooth and nail against providing recording of assessments, at one point telling claimants they could only have their assessment recorded if they themselves provided Police quality dual recorded recordings. The change in things has come about through the involvement of visual recording of claimants and the concerns that such recordings bring to the whole assessment issue.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 23, 2018, 09:30:12 AM


Lankou, I cannot get where you are coming from,.

That I am afraid is the problem. Video and audio recording with embedded time stamps will stop the current problems of verballing of claimants and the lies in reports.
(That is why the DWP and the contractors are so opposed to it.)
I am despairing at the comments on this thread.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 23, 2018, 11:09:59 AM
Quote
I am despairing at the comments on this thread.

Are you despairing because the comments are related to aspects the campaign had not expected?

I know there are only a handful of us posting but surely you should have heard comments like this already as the campaign was set up. What was the old groups campaign slogan 'Nothing for us without us.' ?

The more we talk the more we learn  >dove<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 23, 2018, 11:26:11 AM
Quote

I know there are only a handful of us posting but surely you should have heard comments like this already as the campaign was set up.

I was have been campaigning against the sham assessment since before they started to be used. If you can remember that far back charities for disabled people were all for the assessments for some time before the realised they had been sold a pig in a poke.
I made contributions to the government "consultation" at the tiem and there were also heated written exchanges between myself and Peter Lilley because I could see the assessments were going to be a sham before they started to be used.
So over 28 years on you can see why I am disappointed.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 23, 2018, 05:37:43 PM
Lankou,

Thank you for that it led me to a further thought. How can we make sure the DWP, Government and Assessors don't benefit from videoing of assessments at the expense of a claimant? We have to be careful about spin and this being made into a win for the powers that be. After all they are not going to say the allowed the assessments to be videoed so the assessors could no longer get away with lying - assuming that works.

Why do you think 'they' have agreed to a pilot study?

It seems like more mainstream long lived disability rights campaigners could benefit from coming to places like Ouch Too we just need to wake it up from slumber.
 >dove<

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 23, 2018, 07:20:42 PM
''I am despairing at the comments on this thread''

And I'm getting tired of comments such as that one.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 23, 2018, 07:54:30 PM
I don’t think there has been any explanation as why lankou is in despair or what we have said that’s wrong. 
I think we all agree the assessments are not suitable and going further the benefit itself is flawed but as I have to work within the current rules I have given up with my wish list of how the system works.

The problem I see is that it’s hard to create a fair system.
 >dove<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 24, 2018, 08:15:58 AM
''I am despairing at the comments on this thread''

And I'm getting tired of comments such as that one.

The video/soun recording will not be compulsory if the claimant does not want it.
If you felt you have been kicked in the face after 28 years of campaigning you might come close to how I feel.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 24, 2018, 08:23:25 AM
Come on Lankou, will you behave yourself for a minute?  Just what is it that has been said that has suggested any of us do not want recording of these assessments?

Can you tell me if a claimant facing assessment can refuse video assessment recording but still have the right ask/demand to audio recording?

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 24, 2018, 09:20:14 AM
Come on Lankou, will you behave yourself for a minute?  Just what is it that has been said that has suggested any of us do not want recording of these assessments?

Can you tell me if a claimant facing assessment can refuse video assessment recording but still have the right ask/demand to audio recording?

They already have the right to demand a recording, but until recently the DWP/Contractors had been using every trick in the book to prevent what is a claimants legal right.
That apparently is changing (I will believe it when I see it, the claimant being able to opt out if they so wish.
But frankly given the massive safeguard to the claimant why anyone would wish to opt out as appears to be the case on this thread is depressing.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 24, 2018, 10:22:24 AM
Quote
But frankly given the massive safeguard to the claimant why anyone would wish to opt out as appears to be the case on this thread is depressing.

That is a big statement Lankou.
I would not expect a person to be depressed at what we are saying but they you go you are depressed by it and that is okay.

Each person having an assessment needs to decide what the best course of action is for them and part of that is knowing having the video assessment is not  necessarily going to stop what you call verballing.

To be fair I need to mention I have a interesting in criminology and we each interpret the world around us. They are currently people who are in prison based on evidence that was videoed during interviews. Me knowing that does not make me say video is a bad option but I do believe it needs to be understood for what it is.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 24, 2018, 10:25:39 AM
PS

Is videoing assessments going to add extra costs to the assessment process both for the DWP or to welfare rights organisations?

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 24, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
''But frankly given the massive safeguard to the claimant why anyone would wish to opt out as appears to be the case on this thread is depressing.''

I have not read a single posting Lankou, that has argued for opting out of recording assessments. However what is being questioned is having the choice between being audio only recorded or video recorded. It has to be asked, that if a claimant is wishing to opt out of video recording but not audio recording, will they be faced with a situation that the assessor tells them it is audio + video recording or no recording at all?

One simple solution to this could be for claimants under going assessments would be for them to be asked through the paperwork process/form filling which method of recording they prefer to have used in their assessment recording.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 24, 2018, 07:54:26 PM
You can get your ESA assessment recorded, it’s one of the last questions asked on every form.
Can’t remember anyone who said yes but it’s a choice they already have.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 25, 2018, 07:29:20 AM
You can get your ESA assessment recorded, it’s one of the last questions asked on every form.
Can’t remember anyone who said yes but it’s a choice they already have.

Good morning Monic, I guess the form has changed since I last saw one as I cannot remember seeing that question on  mine,  >erm< maybe I missed it :-)

My question would be, where a claimant is being asked on the form in front of them if they want their ESA assessment recorded, is there a choice between audio alone or must it be video recorded or not at all?

I would not be at all surprised if McVey's folk have discussed much as we have some of the plusses and minuses of video recording. For the DWP to now be all of a sudden so keen to push videoing the assessments where previously they were in no great hurry to push the Atos's of this world to provide audio recording has me thinking they, the DWP, have looked on the negatives we have talked about and seen these same negatives as plusses.

I can see the DWP, under McVey, using their idea of video recording as another tool to make face to face assessments as intimidating as possible for claimants.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 25, 2018, 09:04:39 AM


I would not be at all surprised if McVey's folk have discussed much as we have some of the plusses and minuses of video recording. For the DWP to now be all of a sudden so keen to push videoing the assessments where previously they were in no great hurry to push the Atos's of this world to provide audio recording has me thinking they, the DWP, have looked on the negatives we have talked about and seen these same negatives as plusses.

I can see the DWP, under McVey, using their idea of video recording as another tool to make face to face assessments as intimidating as possible for claimants.

The DWP have HAD to give it to the FACT, that NOT sound recording and videong assessments is breaking the law.
That is why the change.
As for assessments that are being sound  and video recorded being stressful for claimants it isn't as stressful living with no income.
The stress will be on the liars and bullies doing the assessments, and it will rid the process of the rotten apples.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 25, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
''The DWP have HAD to give it to the FACT, that NOT sound recording and videong assessments is breaking the law.''

''The DWP have had to give to the fact, that not sound recording assessments is breaking the law.'' would be more accurate Lankou but as you yourself have said in an earlier posting assessing contractors had sought to use every tool/excuse they could find to avoid providing audio recordings of assessments, without facing prosecution or penalty.

''As for assessments that are being sound and video recorded being stressful for claimants it isn't as stressful living with no income.''

Yes Lankou, it is stressful for claimants to live with no income but that is no excuse for the not so subtle intimidation by the DWP.  Given we have the proven history of almost criminal assessment reporting by Atos assessors not to understand that where a claimant is scared/very nervous of the videoing of their assessment leaves them vulnerable to facing the same original lies and fake assessments if they do not accept video recording of their assessment, that Lankou is intimidation at its finest.

DWP providing video recording for all DWP assessments is all well and good but leaves, without protections in place for claimants, things open to question as to why the DWP have rather than sorting out the assessment providing companies failures to provide even audio recording of assessments in the first place began introducing video recording. Could it just be that they are aware of just how intimidating and off putting video recording would be to many claimants?

I would not be surprised in the slightest to find it has been the assessing companies who suggested using video recording, just for many of the negative issues from the point of view of the claimants we have spoken about in this thread.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 25, 2018, 09:57:58 AM
''The DWP have HAD to give it to the FACT, that NOT sound recording and videong assessments is breaking the law.''

''The DWP have had to give to the fact, that not sound recording assessments is breaking the law.'' would be more accurate Lankou but as you yourself have said in an earlier posting assessing contractors had sought to use every tool/excuse they could find to avoid providing audio recordings of assessments, without facing prosecution or penalty.

''As for assessments that are being sound and video recorded being stressful for claimants it isn't as stressful living with no income.''

Yes Lankou, it is stressful for claimants to live with no income but that is no excuse for the not so subtle intimidation by the DWP.  Given we have the proven history of almost criminal assessment reporting by Atos assessors not to understand that where a claimant is scared/very nervous of the videoing of their assessment leaves them vulnerable to facing the same original lies and fake assessments if they do not accept video recording of their assessment, that Lankou is intimidation at its finest.

DWP providing video recording for all DWP assessments is all well and good but leaves, without protections in place for claimants, things open to question as to why the DWP have rather than sorting out the assessment providing companies failures to provide even audio recording of assessments in the first place began introducing video recording. Could it just be that they are aware of just how intimidating and off putting video recording would be to many claimants?

I would not be surprised in the slightest to find it has been the assessing companies who suggested using video recording, just for many of the negative issues from the point of view of the claimants we have spoken about in this thread.

I really have been wasting my time for the last 28 years. (Seriously.) 
The DWP and contractors have been backed into a corner, basically they have given in, but are not likely to admit that.
I susepect they have become scared because to the number of deaths related to wrong assessments and other DWP activities
(They have been trying to keep their own investigations into it secret but have failed.)

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-investigations-into-deaths-double-in-two-years/

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-universal-credit-death-linked-to-claimant-commitment-threats/

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 25, 2018, 10:07:02 AM
''I really have been wasting my time for the last 28 years. (Seriously.)''

OK so let's not take another 28 years whilst you take apart the points I have put forward Lankou.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 25, 2018, 10:17:38 AM
Lankou, please forgive my ignorance but what has, ''https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-investigations-into-deaths-double-in-two-years/

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-universal-credit-death-linked-to-claimant-commitment-threats/''  to do with what we are discussing on this thread?  Neither of these two links make reference to the video recording of assessments.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 25, 2018, 11:19:44 AM
Lankou, please forgive my ignorance but what has, ''https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-investigations-into-deaths-double-in-two-years/

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwps-secret-benefit-deaths-reviews-universal-credit-death-linked-to-claimant-commitment-threats/''  to do with what we are discussing on this thread?  Neither of these two links make reference to the video recording of assessments.

I can see I really am beating my head up against a brick wall, the current system of assessments causes deaths, because of people being wrongly found fit for work.  So both those links are relevant.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 25, 2018, 11:27:56 AM
JLR, is making a good point.

In my opinion the topic of claimants deaths after being sanctioned or refused benefit should have a thread of its own.

My next question is if videoing is shown to be beneficial to the assessment process eg the DWP finds the rate of successful appeals going down what safeguards are going to be put in place to stop the DWP insisting all assessments are videoed.

Lankou,

I am trying to discuss this with you because you are a person who has been in amongst the campaigning side of things and so I am hoping you have answers.

 >dove<

PS I will go and start a new thread about deaths. We can still talk about it in this discussion but it does need a separate thread as well.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 25, 2018, 12:53:00 PM
This is just a thought, maybe a daft thought but a thought never the less, suppose it was to be declared in parliament (as in made law)  that no WCA/PIP/UC assessment could be carried out by any assessing company without it being audio recorded with video recording made available as an optional extra for the claimant?
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 25, 2018, 01:22:38 PM
This is just a thought, maybe a daft thought but a thought never the less, suppose it was to be declared in parliament (as in made law)  that no WCA/PIP/UC assessment could be carried out by any assessing company without it being audio recorded with video recording made available as an optional extra for the claimant?

Hits head against wall again. There will be dual time stamped recordings one the property of the claimant.
(I have gone over this several times and referenced it.)
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 25, 2018, 02:40:44 PM
Lankou,

I am sorry to be confused but did you mean to quote something else other than what JLR.

I thought JLR and I were just now asking about people getting to decide for themselves whether to be videoed and not what makes the videoing process safe.

It is still good to know about the time stamp though. >dove<
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 25, 2018, 04:37:37 PM


It is still good to know about the time stamp though. >dove<

When comes to using recording for evidence in legal proceeding continous real time stamping is a legal requirement.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 26, 2018, 07:28:48 AM


It is still good to know about the time stamp though. >dove<

When comes to using recording for evidence in legal proceeding continous real time stamping is a legal requirement.

''Hits head against wall again''  I'd stop doing that Lankou, it doesn't appear to be knocking any sense into you, does it?  Answering Sunshine's posting as you did is to behave as I would expect any politician to behave, ie not answering the question asked.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 26, 2018, 09:45:48 AM


It is still good to know about the time stamp though. >dove<

When comes to using recording for evidence in legal proceeding continous real time stamping is a legal requirement.

''Hits head against wall again''  I'd stop doing that Lankou, it doesn't appear to be knocking any sense into you, does it?  Answering Sunshine's posting as you did is to behave as I would expect any politician to behave, ie not answering the question asked.

I did answer the question asked.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 26, 2018, 10:48:16 AM
Lankou,

Come on now lets not get into a situation where you and I get into silliness. I did forget to add a question mark at the end.

Just treat this as a repeat question.

Quote
My next question is if videoing is shown to be beneficial to the assessment process eg the DWP finds the rate of successful appeals going down what safeguards are going to be put in place to stop the DWP insisting all assessments are videoed.


Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 26, 2018, 01:09:27 PM
Lankou,

Come on now lets not get into a situation where you and I get into silliness. I did forget to add a question mark at the end.

Just treat this as a repeat question.

Quote
My next question is if videoing is shown to be beneficial to the assessment process eg the DWP finds the rate of successful appeals going down what safeguards are going to be put in place to stop the DWP insisting all assessments are videoed.


I really am losing the will to live here. The whole point of campaigning for assessments to be videoed and sound recorded was to stop the verballing of claimants and the assessors telling outright lies in reports to the DWP.
The number of appeals would fall dramatically and far fewer claimants would be found fit for work at assessments.
I really am sorry if it is difficult for people to understand that.

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 26, 2018, 02:01:28 PM
''The whole point of campaigning for assessments to be videoed and sound recorded was to stop the verballing of claimants and the assessors telling outright lies in reports to the DWP''

Listen up Lankou, I am getting sick to the back teeth of the tone of your postings, between postings such as ''I really am losing the will to live here'' and your determination to ignore what I and others have tried to say it really is getting pathetic.

Take the posting I have referred to at the start of this posting, for one videoing an assessment without audio would be daft to say the least. Countering ''outright lies in assessors reports could be done through the use of audio recordings alone but then you know that don't you, it's just that you choose to ignore this just as you have chosen to ignore so much of what has been being said.

Yes it is true many have fought to have assessments recorded but that fight was to have these assessments audio recorded and well you know it. The introduction of videoing before the DWP have even managed to get the basics of audio recording sorted out smacks to me of a deliberate ploy to put pressure on the more vulnerable claimants facing assessments.

Feel free to bang your head against your wall, if it is still standing.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: lankou on September 26, 2018, 02:37:45 PM
one videoing an assessment without audio would be daft to say the least.

The assessments will be videod AND audio recorded I made that clear from the start.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 26, 2018, 05:38:06 PM
I would like to have three choices:

1. No audio or video footage taken and rely on the paperwork description of the assessment.

2. Audio without video, along with a paperwork description of my assessment.

3. Both audio and video along with a paperwork description of the assessment.

Lankou,

Do you agree with these three choices being on offer and will you fight against option 1 being taken away from claimants who prefer that option?
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 26, 2018, 05:51:45 PM
Lankou,

Quote
I really am losing the will to live here. The whole point of campaigning for assessments to be videoed and sound recorded was to stop the verballing of claimants and the assessors telling outright lies in reports to the DWP.
The number of appeals would fall dramatically and far fewer claimants would be found fit for work at assessments.
I really am sorry if it is difficult for people to understand that.


Could you please just think outside of the box for a few minutes.

In a circumstances where videoing an assessment fails to stop 'verballing' and worst still it is used as evidence by the DWP during appeals and the DWP wins, do you see there is a possibility that the DWP might want everyone's assessment to be videoed?

I am not saying that videoing will help anyone either way because we wont know until it happens. I do have questions that seem to keep being answered with information based on the assumption that videoing will stop 'verballing'.

I hope you are right and in a years time I come back to the thread and post an apology for nagging you to look at the issue from more sides.
We (including JLR and you) are on the same side and its important to remember we each have very different backgrounds so have differing approaches to life and campaigning.

I am hoping you let the people who joined in the campaign to get the DWP to allow videoing of assessments know some of us 'newcomers' think our choices need to be maintained.

edit to fix typo I wrote so when it should have been some SM
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Monic1511 on September 26, 2018, 09:23:46 PM
I have nothing against assessments being recorded, I just don't see it being the cure all that people think.   I have lots of clients who self medicate their mental health issues with either alcohol or street drugs.  You might see these people up the town staring into space until you engage with them and they will mutter away, some can turn up and seem as if they are perfectly polite.


Their assessments normally read, claimant was clean and tidy, had good awareness of their condition, could answer questions coherently, was not rocking ( no excessive distress)  - I then meet them for pre appeal and agree with all of the above but will fight to get them back onto ESA because although they can function for that one 90 minute block, the stress triggers their mental health and they show this in angry outbursts.    They were physically well enough to walk into a room sit at a desk so the video would show that.


Yes having a verbal transcript of the assessment would be useful as long as you don't have a cheeky sarcastic claimant, Oh aye I can walk, I was dancing with my bird last night - translated as I stood in the living room with the budgie on my shoulder and shuffle to the radio.   Or as one client told the appeal panel about the assessor "Oh she was a nice wee lassie so I just told her what she wanted to hear"   >headbang<After explaining to the panel doctor that he knew you were not allowed alcohol in the mental hospital but the stash was kept in the bushes and brought in to order by whoever had a day pass.   A bad panel would have taken that as an ability to plan and budget,  when asked about budgeting the panel member said "remember you told me that 4 cans of super lager was £4.50 in the supermarket, if I gave you 50p change from £10.00 for one pack would you be sure if that was the correct change or not"  His reply was "if I noticed I'd have thought you were a cheat but I think your a nice man"   >doh<   All of this is on tape as appeals are recorded and even listening to the statements doesn't automatically show up the health problems, and he was smart as he was going to see officials  >erm<

I suppose what I'm saying is that he came across as a nice wee man with a drink problem but could function fine as he chose not to cook, he told them he could make meals and would wash every 2 days, After all that I was so relieved to come out of there with an award but another panel would have looked at the same interview / exchange and refused his appeal as he said he could do most things.
I spent a lot of that appeal trying not to giggle as he was unintentionally funny but he had substantial mental health problems which led to the alcohol problems.  It did help that we had a decent DWP presenting officer who said to the panel that bearing in mind what had been heard today he had no problems with the decision being changed.


I still think the problem is that the whole system is based on people meeting certain tick boxes and health is way more complex than that.

Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 27, 2018, 04:49:56 AM
''...the whole system is based on people meeting certain tick boxes and health is way more complex than that''

I could not have put that better myself, hard as I might try :-)

Your posting there Monic with the references to things you have experienced does cause me to understand better why Lankou has been posting as he has.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on September 27, 2018, 11:42:47 AM
Thought some might like to read this from the newspaper I got today,

‘’People will be given greater choice and control over their assessment through four actions I have committed to today. ‘’People will be invited at a time that suits them and to a location that suits them’’. For those with difficulty travelling, the assessor will come to them. In addition we will introduce audio recordings of assessments as standard to ensure accuracy and transparency. And we will also allow the social security appeals tribunal to access the audio recording to help inform their decision’’. Scottish government Social Security Minister Shirley-Anne Somerville. as reported in The National ( a Scottish Newspaper) today.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on September 27, 2018, 02:32:45 PM
Thank you and here is the online version http://www.thenational.scot/news/16905443.scottish-government-to-introduce-disability-benefit-assessments-to-suit-applicants/

I hope Scotland is going to be able to show the Englad powers that be that there is a better way to administer assessments and achieve fair results.

Quote
“It is clear that the UK Government are content with an approach that sees private-sector assessment providers prioritise profits over people,” said Somerville.

“This Government puts people first and foremost. We will not farm out assessments to private companies.

“Furthermore, under the Scottish Government system, people will be given greater choice and control over their assessment through four actions I have committed to today.

“People will be invited at a time that suits them and to a location that suits them. For those with difficulty travelling, the assessor will come to them.

“In addition, we will introduce audio recordings of assessments as standard to ensure accuracy and transparency. And we will also allow the social security appeals tribunal to access the audio recording to help inform their decision.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: Offworld on October 07, 2018, 03:30:07 AM
I can see the DWP, under McVey, using their idea of video recording as another tool to make face to face assessments as intimidating as possible for claimants.

Fwiw, I have just applied for MR re a PIP assessment. The so-called Assessor seemed utterly obsessed in her "report" that I was clean, tidily dressed, well-spoken and behaved, and showing no outward signs of terror (by then, simply too far gone for that).
Which would in turn appear to have -- for me, adversely -- influenced the Decision Maker who read that report
Assessor's lengthy output containing misrepresentations, omissions and semi-truths may have been a cut-and-paste compendium of stock phrases anyway...
Arguable that sound recording might have helped, though only if a DM had listened to it.
Video wouldn't.
All it would be likely to contain is increasingly angry yes / no answers, at best ...
Would having opted out of image (though not sound) be held against a claimant?
Why have those who rule -- who didn't even want sound recording before  -- now become so amenable to the idea of filming?
Ulterior motives?

I susepect they have become scared because to the number of deaths related to wrong assessments and other DWP activities
(They have been trying to keep their own investigations into it secret but have failed.)
Failed?
Thanks to the mass-media's collusion or lack of interest, most of the public don't even know.
Title: Re: First I've heard of this- Are PIP assessments going to be videoed ?
Post by: JLR2 on October 07, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
''Why have those who rule -- who didn't even want sound recording before  -- now become so amenable to the idea of filming?
Ulterior motives?''

In a nutshell, yes they do have ulterior motives and none of which lie in the interests of disabled benefit claimants.