Author Topic: Demonising the left  (Read 794 times)

Sunny Clouds

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Demonising the left
« on: 03 Apr 2018 06:22PM »
Ok, so my politics are distinctly left of centre, however what's going on in terms of demonising Jeremy Corbyn would worry me if Labour were in power and it were being done to Tory/Libdem opposition.  I believe our UK politics are healthiest with a left, right, left, right swing.

I see that some Jewish groups have publicly demonstrated against Corbyn, claiming a serious problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, and other Jewish groups have publicly demonstrated  in defence of Corbyn, saying that there is antisemitism in society, but that it's not a particular problem in the Labour party and gets rooted out.  Most mainstream media outlets reported extensively on the anti-Corbyn Jewish demonstrations, not the pro-Corbyn Jewish demonstrations.

Corbyn publicly invited leaders of the three main Jewish groups criticising him to meet with him and so far all have publicly declined.  Maybe they'll change their minds or have already done so but not hit the media with it.

One Jewish group invited him for a Passover meal and he went and listened to what they had to say, and somehow large swathes of MSM outlets have managed to turn that into some sort of evidence of antisemitism(?!)

Personally, given the choice, I'd like a coalition government in this country led by Greens, but I'm not going to get that, so for me, Corbyn's the next best thing.  However, even if it were a Tory politician that were on the end of such distorted attacks, I wouldn't be happy about it.

One particular worry I have is that it's a back-door way of hitting at Muslims and creating unnecessary division between Jews and Muslims.  Divide and rule.  And do we think the existing efforts to divide people into "Decent, hardworking families" and "Benefits scroungers" that has already hit disabled people won't be increased?  I don't.

The sort of political climate where a party leader can be portrayed as antisemitic for having a passover meal with a bunch of Jews is one that for me is scary.  I wish I had a clue what I, personally, could do to influence anything.


The parallel I see is in relation to how effectively the issue of the very, very small number of self-declared but not yet fully-transitioned transwomen in this country possibly being able to use women's facilities is being used to distract feminists.  In America, this was all stirred up, with various places passing laws/regulations saying that people had to use the public loos relating to their recorded gender at birth.  That worked great until someone worked out that this meant that transmen got to use women's loos.  Erm.  Then there was that lovely video that went viral of a woman, born a woman, still a woman who was a 'butch dyke' being dragged out of a public loo by men described as police (I think the word police includes security guards there and I'm not sure which they are).  Laws started to be reversed.  But oh what a wonderful distraction it was for a while. In this country it's currently being used to attack the Labour party with, but I'd not like it if the politics of other parties were distorted like this.

The united bias of the MSM in the UK puts me in mind of interwar MSM, led by the Daily Mail.  It's a miracle our politicians didn't go down the route of supporting Hitler, and I'm still convinced that it wasn't niceness that made them say no, this won't become a Nazi country.

As I type this, I suppose that all that I can realistically do as an individual is to make donations to media outlets that present alternative viewpoints.

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Monic1511

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #1 on: 03 Apr 2018 07:49PM »
The focus on Jeremy Corbyn is scary because it's orchestrated by the government supporting media.  Without google I couldn't tell you who was in the cabinet - at a stretch you have Theresa May, Bungling Boris, Esther McVile, Davis (brexit secretary) Philip Hammond (maybe) but I wonder what that lot have to hide that they keep the media focus on Jeremy Corbyn.

SteveX

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #2 on: 03 Apr 2018 08:25PM »
I think it's quite disturbing tbh.  This is really getting out of hand.   I'm no expert by any means but I don't believe 99% of what the media say these days, even the BBC have (imo) lost the plot and are no longer unbiased in their reporting.

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Sunny Clouds

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #3 on: 03 Apr 2018 09:48PM »
My take on the Corbyn thing is that I'm prepared to believe the Al Jazeera investigation/exposť into the influence of the Israeli government in internal politics in the UK and some other countries.  The Israelis are now on good terms with the Saudis, both anti-Iran.  The Saudis have been our allies for decades, therefore our political leaders would want to be nice to their allies.  After all, we've been nice enough to the Saudis to be involved in bombing the wotsit out of civvies in Yemen, where there's now a major humanitarian crisis with mass starvation and disease.  Hmm, where are the headlines about that?

But who knows?  Maybe at some point either the Saudis will run out of oil and money and therefore influence, or maybe they'll change their minds about liking the Israelis, or maybe Israel will get a major change of government.

But for now, it's not a good time to be a Jew with sympathies towards Palestinians, and any politician in the UK that questions the decency of what the current Israeli government is doing will be called 'antisemitic'. 

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

JLR2

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #4 on: 04 Apr 2018 08:08AM »
What I am about to type may see me having my posting removed if so I'll apologize now but I feel I have to say it if only to get it out my system.

The Holocaust happened, that is a fact but had it not what would be the situation of the people of the Jewish faith today?  As I understand the story of history the people of the Jewish faith have been disliked/hated by non Jews since the times of Jesus. Jews have found themselves being attacked by numerous countries, country's such as pre-ww2 Russia and the like. So what would be different today had Hitler and his fellow Nazis never gained the power they did?  Would those of the Jewish faith be any more loved or hated?

What we are witnessing regarding Jeremy Corbyn is nothing more than the MSM, those on the right of the Labour Party and more and more the BBC doing all that they can to destroy his leading the Labour Party. Those on the right of Labour are still missing their hero Blair and cannot get over that lying piece of faeces no longer being their Leader. Blair was and always had been nothing more than a closet Tory whom knew he would never lead the Tory Party and hence never be PM so he masqueraded as a Labour supporter joining the Labour Party to achieve his aims.

Israel just as the NRA in the US know they are dependant on their supporting whoever stands for the office of President of the United States. Israel's existence without the protection of the US would be reversed 47+ years virtually overnight were it to be removed. Right now I feel Trump is more of a mind to support Putin than the Israeli PM. Trump looks first at where there is money in things for his benefit and if by chance it might help regular Americans well that'd be a bonus.

Rant over.

KizzyKazaer

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #5 on: 04 Apr 2018 09:07AM »
Quote
What I am about to type may see me having my posting removed if so I'll apologize now but I feel I have to say it if only to get it out my system.

I don't see anything in your post that breaks the rules of the message board, JLR, so no worries!

KizzyKazaer

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #6 on: 04 Apr 2018 09:09AM »
... and also, I think that people, including politicians of any party, should be free to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without being automatically labelled 'anti-Semitic'.  That's just silliness and a blatant attempt to silence debate.

JLR2

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #7 on: 04 Apr 2018 09:18AM »
... and also, I think that people, including politicians of any party, should be free to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without being automatically labelled 'anti-Semitic'.  That's just silliness and a blatant attempt to silence debate.

Absolutely spot on Kizzy.

Thanks Kizzy. The way things are being seen these days does see me wondering at times just what can be said at all without the person saying it being labelled negatively one way or another.

In many ways this situation will be used by governments of the day using such as the social media to brow beat folk with something to say into silence allowing said government of the day to carry on with whatever drew the person's comments unabated and unchallenged. Sort of where say a disabled person looks to draw peoples attention to a really bad action/policy of a government the government will look to trash the person with the result no one takes the time to read what had been saying. Trump gave this sort of tactic a huge boost when he gave birth to his near catchphrase, ''Fake news''  now folk will miss important things which have a direct impact on them personally as they assume what was being said was just fake news.
« Last Edit: 04 Apr 2018 09:33AM by JLR2 »

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #8 on: 04 Apr 2018 10:33AM »
I'm trying not to feel too depressed about politics.  Unfortunately, my view of politics, looking at world politics over the millennia, is that we have been unusually fortunate in the UK for a long time and turned a blind eye to the cost to others around the world.  I'm not confident those in power would have any qualms at all about squashing us if they thought that's where their advantage lay.  As I type this, I think in some ways maybe we were better off when monarchy had more power and wars and nastiness were as between kings  (e.g. WW1 between close relatives ruling Britain, Russia & Germany) because we could reward them with glorification, fancy uniforms, big parades etc. 

It's all too easy, though, for any politician to get us to think we're nicer than others and therefore that we're right and whoever they paint as demons are wrong.

Let me show a different angle.  It relates to the build up of Nazism and to logic not morality.  Food for thought about now.  For a moment, forget the nastiness that happened later, just focus on how the Nazis got support, on the build-up.  You know all that stuff about the Weimar republic and inflation with wheelbarrows of cash?  It was their part of what was variously labelled the Great Depression (American) or, for us now, with classic British understatement, our interwar years.  Note that "The Great Depression" doesn't blame the American Government, nor our phrase now "The Interwar Years" but who mentions the same epoch in Germany without mentions of Weimar?

Now think of your ordinary, suffering, interwar German.  He or his family went off to fight WW1.  He was subject to the same propaganda as other soldiers.  He had no reason to suppose the German cause was any worse than our cause, and it wasn't even the Germans that started the whole Europe-wide fighting, but boy did we make them suffer under the Treaty of Versailles.  A treaty which, incidentally, the French and Germans broke before the Germans did.

So you're an ordinary German who's suffering.  You see part of your suffering coming from the French and British.  Good, politicians will be able to mobilise you against them, which will be particularly useful in the fight for third world domination by the German empire as against the British and French empires.

But who are you afraid of next to them?  People with financial power and, from the other side of your country, in a pincer grip with the British and French, the Communists/Stalinists.  The best known early communists were Jewish.  You've got Jewish immigrants from the pogroms coming your way as well.  Are they bringing their strange clothes, customs, politics?

And finance.  There are those big bankers, aren't there?  Rightly or wrongly, the Rothschild name has been known for a very long time now, well before that era, for its influence in banking across various countries.  So the 'name' you, as a man in the street know, is a Jewish one. 

Then there are the shops.  Any of you here old enough to remember the days when if you were skint, you didn't use a credit card, you bought on tick?  Or you could pawn stuff, which you still can.  Now just for a moment think Shakespeare.  Shylock in the Merchant of Venice.  What am I on about?  For a very long time in many Christian countries, usury was a no-no for Christians so Jewish people usually did it.  For us now Jew = usurer is a strange mental association, but in the Blackshirt days of the 30s over here it would also have been a mental association, albeit  not such a strong one.

So what do we get?  The Nazis play to these fears.  Curiously, Hitler protected some Jews, including his old family doctor, which suggests to me that it wasn't actually hatred of all that started it, it was fear and hatred of some Jews with a sense that you couldn't tell which.  It also explains his support for zionism until it became evident that the Jews weren't going to get their Israeli homeland just yet.

And even in the early days of persecution, it was mostly about driving out, then about interning, and the 'final solution' was just that, a sort of "Oh hell, let's just be done with it."  Not an original plan, a drift.

So I would argue that it was morally wrong, something we mustn't repeat, something we must learn from; but also that the danger is that it was logical. 

Ah, but we wouldn't do something that was morally wrong just because it seemed logical, would we?  Hmm, so it wasn't wrong, then, when Churchill diverted food away from Bengal, part of the British Empire, and turned down offers of food aid for them from two allies, saying it was more important to feed the 'sturdy Greeks', who, incidentally, were our allies, but not our responsibility unlike our king's subjects in  Bengal.  Still, the Bengalis were just brown-faced foreigners.  Not like us white people.  It was ok if 3 million of them died so we could fight our war.  But no, our decisions weren't based on a fear of being defeated or on prioritising one ethnicity over another, were they?

So when I'm frightened of the way politicians and, more to the point, media moguls and their friends, play one group against another, one religion against another, one ethnicity against another, it's partly because people keep telling us about the morality, or rather amorality of the holocaust, not about the logic that led up to it. 

Let me think, now, foreigners in strange dress with different accents and a different religion coming here as refugees from countries whose key players we're told are a threat to us?  Hmm, is that 30s Jews or 2018 Muslims with darker skin?  People with great financial power we're given to understand are having a big influence on us?  Hmm, is that 30s Jews in communist countries, or is it 2018 Muslims in whichever's the oil country of the moment?  At least we'll never have a Kristallnacht smashing up Muslim-owned shops, will we? Er...

No, it doesn't map on precisely, but I'm just saying that the lesson we never seem to learn from the past is not the danger of behaving immorally, but how seemingly rational behaviour can turn out to be immoral.  We think we'd always make the 'right' decisions.

One reason I've been so upset about some of the Jewish groups in the UK piling into the anti-Corbyn campaign is that I think our best chance of keeping ourselves safe is different religions standing together.  Here's wishing I were still religiously active (I stopped going to church a few years back because I got too angry with God) because if I were, I'd be trying to get more visible Jew + Christian + Sikh (etc) + Muslim unity going on.  I see it in my own community.  I've participated in a demonstration in the heart of our neighbourhood with spiritual leaders and community members together.  Sure as hell, the media weren't interested.  Gosh, vicar, priest, elder, rabbi, imam, humanist all together making speeches and waving placards?  No, couldn't publish that. 

A Jewish friend of mine died a year or so ago, so I'm not sure what's happening in his synagogue now, but there was some sort of set-up whereby local Muslims cooked meals for hungry people that were eaten in the synagogue and there were Christian food parcels or something.  I'm not sure how it worked, but again sure as hell you wouldn't read about it in most of the MSM.  That same synagogue had a rabbi who was very, very vociferous about what was happening with the demonisation of sick and disabled people.  Again, a reason why I want the Jewish community not divided. 

I don't know what the answer is.  People like me that think a lot and analyse a lot aren't much use outside a media or academic environment.  I don't have what it takes to be a politician.  I just hope that if we have another Battle of Cable Street, I'll have the guts to turn up.  I was too busy feeling sorry for myself over something to turn up to the anti-Iraq war protest/march and part of me knew the invasion was wrong.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #9 on: 04 Apr 2018 12:24PM »
I shouldn't get into politics.  My latest copy of Private Eye arrived this morning.  Depressing.  Nope, politics aren't for us depressed 'uns.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Dark_Divinity

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Re: Demonising the left
« Reply #10 on: 04 Apr 2018 03:47PM »
... and also, I think that people, including politicians of any party, should be free to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without being automatically labelled 'anti-Semitic'.  That's just silliness and a blatant attempt to silence debate.

Absolutely spot on Kizzy.

Thanks Kizzy. The way things are being seen these days does see me wondering at times just what can be said at all without the person saying it being labelled negatively one way or another.

In many ways this situation will be used by governments of the day using such as the social media to brow beat folk with something to say into silence allowing said government of the day to carry on with whatever drew the person's comments unabated and unchallenged. Sort of where say a disabled person looks to draw peoples attention to a really bad action/policy of a government the government will look to trash the person with the result no one takes the time to read what had been saying. Trump gave this sort of tactic a huge boost when he gave birth to his near catchphrase, ''Fake news''  now folk will miss important things which have a direct impact on them personally as they assume what was being said was just fake news.

Like paying people to sit on social media and media comments sections to try and control people's voices and manipulate the views they end up forming after reading the article and the comments?

Covert comments mods who watch and them start arguements to bait and switch to gain control and popularity by fake likes and supportive comments by fake multiple accounts?
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