Ouch Too - a place for and about disabled people.

Forum => Talk => Topic started by: Fiz on 10 Jul 2018 01:02PM

Title: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 10 Jul 2018 01:02PM
I was pondering this today as someone is presently hoping to qualify for a motability vehicle and are hoping that the process of time needed going through their tribunal for the award will gather enough back payment due and them taking out a loan will be enough to buy (their word) an AMG-GT Mercedes sports car through the motability scheme.

I was wondering how people felt about people being able to drive top of the range elite vehicles on the motability scheme?

Getting in and out of cars is painful for me and I think sports cars are low (though my knowledge of cars is scant) so I'd not be physically able to use one myself. I dread to think what the deposit would be.

I guess it's totally up to the person what vehicle they drive. If they can afford the deposit then I guess the monthly mobility payment from PIP is exactly no different whatever car you choose. But it did give me food for thought. The prices for the Mercedes AMG-GT sports car start from £99,245 and another £10,000 will get you the same but as a convertible. That would be one hell of a deposit.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on 10 Jul 2018 01:52PM
I see no reason why people should not be able drive whatever motability car they like provided it does not result in a reduction of the availability to others.

My understanding is that the difference in the cost of the car is largely dealt with by the deposit.

As motability is a form of leasing it can be some otherwise expensive models seem relatively cheap if they maintain a higher resale price at the end of the lease.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: neurochick on 10 Jul 2018 02:26PM
That's not how the Motability Scheme works so this person who is waiting for a tribunal result and planning to buy that particular Mercedes is going to to be sorely disappointed.  They certainly won't be able to get it through Motability. You can't buy a car through the Scheme and you can't contract-hire whatever you fancy.  The option that used to exist to buy a car on Hire Purchase via the Scheme was scrapped some time ago too.  The up-front payment you now have to pay for a more expensive contract hire car isn't a deposit either - its a one-off, sunk payment that you don't get back even though you don't ever own the car.

WAVs aside (where the provisions are slightly different) you can now only sign up for a 3 year contract hire deal from Motability. All you get is the use (hire) of a car for 3 years. And you can only sign up for one of the cars that is actually offered on the Scheme - those are relatively limited.  Cars that are not included in the Motability list are not available to you.  You never own the car - you only have the use of it for 3 years and then have to hand it back at the end of the 3 year period. There are very limited circumstances where the lease can be extended for a further year.

The makes and models available are limited to cars with a maximum, new, dealer list price of approx £30k. Motability renegotiate with the car manufacturers every quarter so the car list, prices, and costs change every quarter.  A car of that rough value (£30k) requires you to pay around £3000 as an upfront payment (which you don't get back) and then your weekly PIP allowance in full for the 3 years.  The scheme used to contain a much, much bigger selection of considerably more expensive cars with massive up front payments but the coalition government put paid to that - Motability cut the selection to cars massively to only those with a maximum one-off up-front payment of £1000.  That has gradually crept back up to the much more useful max £3000 up-front payment that applies now.

Personally I think that you should be able to contract hire whatever car you want via Motability if you are prepared, and able, to afford the up-front payment that it demands.  People all have very different needs and desires when it comes to cars and lifestyles.  If you are working in a good job, have hobbies requiring a big car or have plenty of cash from savings or a compensation award for example, why shouldn't you have a big, fancy, expensive or specialist car?  Its makes no financial difference to Motability - the individual is paying up-front for the additional costs of an expensive car.  Not everyone who receives PIP has state benefits as their only income or has a job with a low income and there's no reason the Scheme can't cater for everyone regardless of income and personal circumstances. 

Motability, the DWP and the government should be doing a much better job of the PR so that the public are no longer under this ridiculous illusion that people on PIP get free cars and that would go a long way to removing the ranting, right-wing, Daily Mail reader attitudes about folk getting fancy free cars which is, of course, based on pure myth.   
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: SashaQ on 10 Jul 2018 08:35PM
Well said neurochick - yes, the motability scheme is basically just worry free motoring (rather than a free car), that they offer a package including servicing and breakdown cover in exchange for the mobility component and any initial payment, and then the car is replaced before it is likely to become unreliable.

The scheme works well for me, as some hand controls are now included in the rental price and fitted at the dealership, so that  is much easier than in the past when I had to buy the controls separately and arrange for someone to drop the car off at the fitters for me, then take me there so I could drive the car home...  I do low mileage commuting to work, so I get the lease extension too, which again is less hassle over five years (although they do need me to take the car in for MOTs as well as services during that period).

The scheme doesn't work well for everyone, though - eg it is a potential disadvantage to not own the car at the end of the lease period...
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 11 Jul 2018 10:10AM
The person I know says "buy" the car but knows it's never theirs, they've had motability vehicles while they were on high rate mobility on DLA and in fact their current high class BMW is about to be collected as their MR maintained their standard mobility award and even if they accept the verbal offer of enhanced mobility it won't arrive in letter from in time to prevent this car being collected. I'm unsure what deposit he paid for the BMW.

Out of interest I've just used the motability car finder search tool to find out which Mercedes are available and for what deposits and choosing them to be listed with the highest deposit first it seems the Mercedes-Benz Vito 2.1CDI Tourer SELECT 119 and the deposit for this is £11,746

I agree though, because the person with the disability is paying the deposit and the amount the government mobility element of PIP or DLA remains the same whether you use all the benefit on a vehicle or part of the benefit, the government pays no more so it's totally up to the disabled user to choose which vehicle they use. I guess that particular Mercedes-Benz would raise a few eyebrows if they knew it was a motability vehicle as most of the public are unaware of the deposits!
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: neurochick on 11 Jul 2018 10:46AM
The Mercedes Benz Vito is a van - its listed as a WAV vehicle by Motability and the normal car rules don't apply to those (as I mentioned in my message).  They are much more expensive initially, as are the adaptations people will typically have to fund, so the up front payments are much larger than the cars on the scheme and the initial leases are for 5 years not 3.

If their BMW is taken away part way through their lease in the circumstances described, they will receive a pro-rated refund of their initial up-front payment. 

 
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 11 Jul 2018 05:58PM
Yes you're right neurochick, the search system on the motability site having a drawing of a car instead of a photo of the vehicle confused me together with my extremely small knowledge of cars gets me easily confuzzled! The most expensive Mercedes-Benz car they do is their B class 2.1d B220 AMG Line 4wd 5dr for a deposit of £3,299 which is far more achievable! He's been told if he takes his BMW back to the dealers he will receive £250 but if they collect it from his home he won't get anything. I hope he chooses to return it himself.

I haven't looked to see what if any cars there are that use less than the weekly PIP mobility allowance. It is interesting.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: bulekingfisher on 18 Jul 2018 05:13PM
Hello ouchers

I think people on mobility schemes should be able to drive luxury cars because we are only human + a two tier scheme is only another wedge to stop us been equal to A.B people +  I thought this whole newsletter (OUCHTOO was the first rung on the ladder to fair play
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 19 Jul 2018 06:52AM
Newsletter?

Ultimately it's not the government paying for any luxury cars via the mobility allowance because everyone with high mobility needs receives the same amount and it's that same amount that is paying for whatever vehicle is chosen each month. It's the customer paying the extra money out of their savings as the deposits for high range cars is more and what anyone does with their savings is their business.

I put on Facebook a few years ago that I was having a lovely lunch in a café in a rural area a few miles away with a friend. My sister quickly contacted me worried that I shouldn't put that on Facebook. I didn't get what she meant at first but she was thinking someone might report me to the DWP for having lunch out and where has the money come from?! I told her my friend had treated me (we alternate who pays and it had been her turn) and my sister said I should edit my status to mention it was lovely to be treated by my friend.

If the public can panic that someone on benefits can afford a sandwich and a cup of tea I can only imagine what they'd think about a Mercedes on the drive/adjacent disabled parking space near home.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Monic1511 on 19 Jul 2018 08:23PM
If the public can panic that someone on benefits can afford a sandwich and a cup of tea I can only imagine what they'd think about a Mercedes on the drive/adjacent disabled parking space near home.

I still hear from people this type of phrase "I worked all my days and now your telling me all Im getting is £73/week. Why cant I get a car and everything paid for me like the person down the street who goes on holiday to spain 4 times a year and has the latest gear."  I then say "Well you could have that as well if you didn't mind being up to your eyes in debt, the holidays are paid by provident loans, the latest gear is on hire from bright house and they get the same money as you."


As for facebook, many dwp cheats are first spotted when they post their holiday snaps, an employability advisor who works near me routinely checks facebook and can tell which clients are coming in and who is gonna cancel by their posts.  Its a great surveillance tool especially as its all disclosed by the person themselves.

As for the query re fancy cars - all the fancy cars I see are 6 inches from the floor, if you can get in and out a car that low wouldn't it be fair to assume you can get off the floor unaided, get out of a bath unaided - oh quick lets review their PIP award and remove the points for washing and bathing.

Don't panic but Im a pessimist at heart - after having had contact with DWP decision makers for too many years  >lol<
 >dove<
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: SashaQ on 20 Jul 2018 09:33AM
"if you can get in and out a car that low wouldn't it be fair to assume you can get off the floor unaided"

Interesting point!  I've only got short spazzy legs, and I have the problem that the average person is getting taller so even small cars have seats that are higher in general to accommodate them - I'm not getting any taller, though, as I'm not an average person...  One year I was seriously contemplating a sports car because I couldn't find a small car I could climb into...  Luckily I was able to get a Motability lease extension for a couple of years and the next time I looked the small cars had better seat height adjusters so I was OK.

I can indeed get off the floor unaided, but a bath is a different beast... <laugh>
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: ally on 20 Jul 2018 11:16AM
I can't get in and out of sports cars.  Nor, can I do the same with large 4 x4.  My son had an Aston Martin, which although was lovely, I couldn't access it. My daughter in law has a Toyota Land Cruiser. I could only get in and out of that by balancing on a crate, which I Wouldnt do. Therefore, I have no idea how some disabled manage with these types,of cars,  without a risk of an injury?  I try not to judge when I see them in disabled car park bays..  The land cruisers are very difficult to park in normal bays due to their size. Personally, I wouldn't have either of them. Prestigious yes, but, not practical for me.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 20 Jul 2018 03:56PM
It took me what seemed like forever to choose the car that would be best for me. I was really impressed with the amount of detail on the motability car finder site. It quoted sill height, seat height, angle the door opens at, how/if seat adjustment height likewise steering wheel. I found no car was perfect. I have never been in a sports car but I've walked past cars where I've wondered how people can get in down there so I'm assuming they were sports cars. I have two people offer me lifts occasionally, one has a medium sized Nissan and I can get in and out of that okay if I concentrate on turning my body the full 90° before getting up and in etc. The other friend who has offered me more lifts has a smaller car. I find it painful to get in and out of because the seat is too low but the door opens a full 90° which is helpful and I have a solid structure therefore to bare some of my weight in my arms rather than my back.

I think the only thing I'd change about my chosen car for my benefit would be the door opening wider. It only opens at 68° and that's not ideal for getting in or out without having to twist my spine but in all other ways it meets my needs perfectly. I'm really thankful that soon I will be able to leave the house and see people so am very blessed with what I've got. Through my childhood my mother set up a tradition of naming a car using the letters in the car's registration plate and I was going to do the same when I know mine but I've decided to call it Baraka which is swahili for blessing. After being stuck in my house for so long never seeing anyone it's definitely going to be a Baraka. Several things worry me, learning to drive an automatic, learning technology when I'm a technophobe and going anywhere where I might see people I know having been a recluse so long.

I'm nervous about driving an automatic (although as the garage I'm ordering through deals only with motability I'm sure the salesman will be used to nerves and will explain things slowly and clearly and not mind further questions) and all of the new controls or technology that I may never understand. I'm going to ask the man at the garage to sync my phone to the car's handsfree system and ask him how I make and receive calls. I make and receive a couple of calls a month so it won't get much use! The blurb says you can also text, I don't understand how. Not handsfree surely.

All I wanted was a car to get me from A to B reliably, is comfortable to sit in and not painful to drive and isn't too painful to get in and out of. Mine meets the first two things fully. Going to the funeral last Friday taught me long journeys are also a thing of the past, I took double the maximum dose of morphine when I got home and it still took me an hour to be able to lie down. But to a shop/chemist/post office is fine. I can't imagine going back to church, too many people. Unless I go when no services are on.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on 21 Jul 2018 10:30AM
Don't be nervous about driving an automatic. Most typical automatics are very easy. Some allow you to choose the gears but you can ignore all that stuff if you choose.

Select 'D' drive to go forward, 'R' reverse to go backwards and 'P' park when you stop. Otherwise forget about the gears and no need to worry about clutch control or stalling. Automatics are much easier on the legs in traffic, no clutch to press. One thing you may notice that you will tend use the foot brake more when stopped in traffic. Most autos creep slightly when no accelerator is applied and the foot brake is released. This is usually an advantage particularly starting on upward slopes.

Cars do tend to have all sorts of techy stuff these days but it doesn't generally get in the way of driving. Don't worry if the salesman reels off a host options and settings you may have on some controls. Pretty well all of them can be ignored until you are familiar with the car and can then adjust it as you prefer. Just ensure you know where the light and wiper switches are., although some cars can turn the wipers on automatically.

Enjoy
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 23 Jul 2018 07:15AM
I drove an automatic car in the US many years ago and I remember not being able to go because I didn't know how to release the brake. The alamo man said it comes on when the ignition is switched off and turns off when the car is started. My car has an "automatic brake" so I am assuming that is the same thing as the US car. Definitely something I need to know before setting off!

I am nervous about driving again. I'm sure it will take quite a few short journeys before I can relax. I used to be a very confident driver but I'd driven my old car for 13 years so was very used to it. Hopefully I will get to the same point with this one. I'm only 3 miles away from the town with GP/chemist/PO/shop which will be good practice as journeys. And it'll be arriving in school holidays so no competing with the school rat runs for a few weeks. 
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on 23 Jul 2018 09:43AM
Your car probably has what some makers call an 'electronic' handbrake. I drove a courtesy car with such an arrangement and the handbrake automatically released as you pressed the accelerator and came on when you stopped. Very easy.

However, having had years of using the traditional handbrake without problem I kept founding my self reaching for it. I'm sure I would get used to it, but I think I prefer to have total control.

Years ago I had a Mercedes with a foot operated 'handbrake'. I never grew to like that arrangement.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: JLR2 on 04 Aug 2018 10:12PM
I have found myself somewhat surprised by this posting. The first thing that hit me was the ending of the right to buy your motability car through the scheme. I was lucky enough, through a rather odd series of circumstances, to have begun buying my motability car years back, my second car was on the purchase scheme. Since then I have been buying my car and through the trade in route ended up with the car I have now a 207sw (my having started with the Peugeot 106) which is now paid off.

Back in 1990 as I was leaving the hospital following an outpatient appointment to do with my injuries from my car crash I was nearly knocked down by a Jaguar XJ as it reversed towards me from a set of traffic lights. The driver was the owner of a fruit market company I used to supply the shop my then wife and I ran. He offered me a lift home, to Castlemilk where I was then living. During the drive I noticed his blue badge on the dash board and told him of my surprise in seeing it. He explained that the car was his and he had used the mobility money awarded to him just to help with the costs involved in running the car.

I had wondered for a few years just how many car dealerships would handle the changes to mobility as so many claimants would be unsure just how long their entitlement to the benefit would be in place as Pip came into being and now I feel I know. The scrapping of the right to buy means claimants will never be faced with repossession of their vehicle due to non payment under a hire purchase arrangement and it will also make refusing claimants a renewal of their PiP award so much easier for the DWP as the car dealerships will not have long term contracts in place as they had under the old scheme. 
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 05 Aug 2018 09:34AM
I had very little knowledge about motability when I wrote the op. At that point I'd just been surprised that it was possible to choose higher end cars.

I hadn't any idea until I'd read your post that there had been a time when you could literally purchase a car and assumed that it had always been a 3 year leasing scheme. Though reading back that was mentioned earlier but I hadn't absorbed that information.

The rules for WAVS are they different because you can buy them over time or lase them for a much longer time than the 3 years?

I've known people who were on highest rate DLA mobility have their motability car collected immediately following a DLA reassessment giving them a lower award. They then went to tribunal to challenge the new award which they were successful in and so paid another deposit for a new motability vehicle for a new 3 year lease. Knowing someone like that would make me wary of paying a big deposit as that person wasn't given their deposit back when the car was collected early. But things will probably have changed and my only knowledge of motability is from the people I know who've used the scheme. 

The government is in the process of removing the motability monopoly of leasing cars in exchange for the DLA/PIP highest mobility award which would open up other companies doing the same. The government feel that ending the monopoly will give customers better deals. But motability is a registered charity who are non profit making so the only way I can think of is the sales specialists who deal with motability earning less as well as the administration people in the office earning less but I'm just getting. Knowing so little about motability I was unsure what ending the motability monopoly will achieve.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: neurochick on 08 Aug 2018 01:26AM
Wav's aren't available on a hire purchase basis from Motability.  They are only available on the same basis as cars - contract hire.  However the standard  period is longer because of the much greater cost of the vehicles and typically the adaptions that people need.  There is also provision for contact hiring a 'nearly new' WAV for a period of 3 years.  There are WAVs that people have already had through Motability but which have been returned in the the first 30 months of their contract for some reason.

If you had a DLA award which stopped then the car would have to be returned but you don't lose all of the Advance Payment.  A pro-rated amount of your Advance Payment is always returned to you when the car is removed.  There are several transitional support packages offered by Motability where a DLA to PIP reassessment results in a loss of entitlement - the package you are entitled to is based on length of time you've continuously been a member of the scheme. I can't understand why the people you know would not have had a pro-rated amount of their Advance Payment returned when their entitlement to DLA HRM stopped part way through their lease.  That has always been the basis on which Motability leases have worked. 

The government is not removing Motability's monopoly or changing any of the basis on which Motability operates.  All that is happening is that the National Audit Office have agreed to do a report into Motability following the news a while back about the pay package of the Chief Exec and the substantial cash reserves that part of the Motability group has.  There may be proposed changes at some time in the future depending on the outcome of the NAO report and whatever recommendations they make but there is nothing on the table at the moment or for the foreseeable future.  I'm just making this point in case anyone is worried unnecessarily because they think things are changing when they aren't.     
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: bulekingfisher on 27 Aug 2018 04:30PM
Hello Fiz


Your knowlage about sport's car been low to the ground is correct + there is no room to carry a wheelchair I know this because my brother drives a sports car
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 28 Aug 2018 02:13PM
I am finding it painful both getting into and getting out of my car. Getting into is the most painful part and when I'm home having been out in it given how little I mobilise out of the car when I go places, I'm sure it's the getting in to the car that is causing me to be in a hell of a lot of pain once home, needing lots of pain meds to be able to lie down. I think what would be useful is something solid to hold with both arms while I lower myself into the drivers seat. Getting out is easier as the steering wheel is solid and helps. Once in the driving seat my back is totally supported in exactly the right position and I can drive pain free as there's a ledge to settle my left foot on at exactly the right distance to not get any pain from my left leg. It's my left leg that triggers the neuropain often so driving it is so comfortable and pain free. I'm finding that because getting into the car causes pain that continues through the day I'm limited to using the car about twice a week, three times at the very most. I'm not prescribed enough pain relief to use it more. But when I think back to the housebound months I do feel thankful for the car. I need to try and work at getting in easier. I wonder if a walking stick would help me lower down slowly. If so that would be easy to pop through to the rear footwell.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: oldtone27 on 28 Aug 2018 02:30PM
I don't know how effective they are but a friend with mobility and pain problems has a handle like device that slots into the car door latch plate when the door is opened. There is a selection on the Amazon page below or seach for 'Handybar'.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_23?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=handybar+car+door+support+handle&sprefix=car+door+handle+support%2Caps%2C204&crid=6W8OJWTT2VSE

They are small enough to keep in a typical door pocket and probably more stable than a walking stick for getting in and out of a car.
Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 02 Sep 2018 08:56AM
Oldtone,

Great link  >thumbsup<

I grabbed a video from YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbc12aE1Lw[/youtube]

The fact Amazon have it on Prime suggests a person could try before they buy as long as the handybar does not end up looking used. It is a great idea for those who can use it.

Fiz,

I just read the whole thread and it looks like you just believed what the other person said about the Motability and went from there. It shows how there could still be a general belief going around that people can get expensive cars on Motability and it is disheartening. It might be a bit of a mental leap of logic but it seems to me the old 'facts' about what a sick and disabled person is entitled to are still enduring well past the days when papers like the Daily Mail were publishing articles about it.

 >angel<

Title: Re: Debate: should people have a choice of luxurious cars on the motability scheme?
Post by: Fiz on 02 Sep 2018 02:37PM
Wow that looks like a great gadget, definitely worth exploring. I've found I can stand using the steering wheel and the seat back as leverage but that means both hands have to be free. I've also improved at getting in. Just with the door open as wide as it can I can reverse and sit on the seat sideways fine. If I then slowly lift my left leg in then my arms can often then lever me into the car and facing the right direction mostly without pain and my right leg behaves and can join its partner with no problems so I'm learning. And that learning means a trip in the car is no longer incapacitating me for the rest of the day. It's a real blessing. It took me longer to work out than I'd expected. And it can only be done slowly to be pain free so I'm dreading trying to get into the car in a downpour when instincts kick in and you rush!

Yes sunshine, I really knew very little about motability. When a person used the word buy I assumed they meant buy etc. I'm learning more about the scheme as I use it. My car has been such a blessing. Also because the garage I went to is a motability garage, my one dealing with Ford, Kia and Mazda, it meant the advisors were extremely knowledgeable about what someone with a disability needs. And were so patient about explaining every little thing and setting it up once it arrived before you collected it etc and then talked me through it all slowly. I'm embarrassed to say I've driven back to the garage twice following disagreements with the built in SatNav. Both times advisors sorted it out straight away and I'm now fairly sure the SatNav and I are on speaking terms. And I'm definitely more confident driving. After 29 months with no car I'd started off with real fear especially as I was changing to an automatic so my naff left leg can do nothing but I really like it now. I hope that motability vehicles are never threatened by further welfare cuts.