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Forum => News and Current Affairs. => Topic started by: Otter on 19 Sep 2012 09:36PM

Title: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Otter on 19 Sep 2012 09:36PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19640257

they are calling a spade a spade, though its too late for many :-(



edit I added more description to the title for the thread > Sunshine
Title: Re: finally!
Post by: devine63 on 20 Sep 2012 12:48AM
Agreed!    Good they are extending the definition to include psychological abuse.

regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Fiz on 23 Sep 2012 11:50AM
It's all rubbish really. The definition of DV within any field dealing with it has always included emotional and psychological abuse and takes that as seriously as any physical abuse. Now it's added to the legal definition which in theory should give the Police and CPS more powers to take action against this type of abuse. But and it's a big but, how on earth do you prove it? It will be very interesting to see if the Police and CPS ever take any legal action on these grounds. I suspect this will make little or no difference to anything. It would be so lovely if the Government could provide some money for recovery services for victims/survivors.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 23 Sep 2012 07:04PM
Hi

how do you prove psychological abuse?   A thorough psychological interview identifying the resulting symptoms would be some evidence.   Add to that the victim's account, any witnesses who may have seen / heard some aspects of the abuse, etc..   As is often the case: where there is little other evidence it may come down to whom the Jury finds most convincing & plausible - and that's not always the perpetrator, however good their act!
regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Fiz on 23 Sep 2012 08:13PM
I personally don't think I could risk it, it would kill me if it ended up as not guilty. I met up with an old friend this week and she is a Detective in the Rape section of the Police and we talked about whether I should disclose in the future. I just know I couldn't. I'm not sure what it would achieve either, I just need some therapy and need to move on. My xh is a master maniupulator and everyone believes him. It amazes me that some people have found out he's told major lies and they still believe what he says after that. I can't fight something like that. For me this legislation means nothing.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 23 Sep 2012 08:19PM
Hi Fiz

I would argue that the legislation gives you the choice - and you have exercised your choice and decided not to act as a witness or to ask for a prosecution, which is entirely your right.   I hope some other women will feel able to make other choices.
regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Otter on 23 Sep 2012 09:39PM
my take on this was its in the public sphere finally! not just for the victims, but the monsters reponsible. I have encountered 3 men now (not relatives) who have threatened me with explicit vile assault over long periods of time and a further two who have managed it and with all is the belief no one is going to do anything about this as there is no exacting legalisation... until now

I also know in the case of all 5, I am not the only victim and the average number of people, these people attack before they are placed behind bars is 160. I am relieved we now have exacting legalisation.

(amended to add warning triangle as requested by Otter - KK)
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Otter on 23 Sep 2012 09:42PM
Kizzy, you may need to put a warning triangle up on this post
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Otter on 23 Sep 2012 09:57PM
Fiz,
those saying they believe him, are doing so because, they knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. They are confirming their guilt, not belief in your xh.
Otter
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 23 Sep 2012 10:05PM
For the post above it - sorted.

My xh is a master maniupulator and everyone believes him.


I had the misfortune to run into someone like that once, and not be taken seriously regarding the 'mind games' he was playing with me - as it was known I had mental health problems, that was used to invalidate me further, and not just by the perp.  'Oh, she must be deluded, taking it the wrong way, he's such a nice person...'  Fortunately, a few others saw through this creep and although there was nothing concrete I could present to any 'authorities' as such, it was enough that I had a handful of people who could confirm I wasn't 'just imagining it'.   

In Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder terms, the act of being dismissed and negated by those who could have helped, is called 'secondary wounding' - oh, how accurate.

This lack of credibility that seems to go with having a mental illness would make it difficult when it comes to the legal stuff, I would think, if there are existing MH issues prior to any psychological abuse - and sadly, the very people who have those prior issues are seen as fair game by the controlling and bullying manipulator types.  If you have one in your life, your only hope is to get rid - permanently.


(edit - added my own triangle as relating personal experience;  just to be on safe side)
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: bulekingfisher on 11 Nov 2012 11:11AM
Hello Fiz

It sounds like you are been apatheicl (giving up before you have given the scheme a chance) one of it's componets might be useful (never judge a book on it's cover)
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: NeuralgicNeurotic on 11 Nov 2012 11:39AM
For the post above it - sorted.

My xh is a master maniupulator and everyone believes him.


I had the misfortune to run into someone like that once, and not be taken seriously regarding the 'mind games' he was playing with me - as it was known I had mental health problems, that was used to invalidate me further, and not just by the perp.  'Oh, she must be deluded, taking it the wrong way, he's such a nice person...'  Fortunately, a few others saw through this creep and although there was nothing concrete I could present to any 'authorities' as such, it was enough that I had a handful of people who could confirm I wasn't 'just imagining it'.   

In Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder terms, the act of being dismissed and negated by those who could have helped, is called 'secondary wounding' - oh, how accurate.

This lack of credibility that seems to go with having a mental illness would make it difficult when it comes to the legal stuff, I would think, if there are existing MH issues prior to any psychological abuse - and sadly, the very people who have those prior issues are seen as fair game by the controlling and bullying manipulator types.  If you have one in your life, your only hope is to get rid - permanently.


(edit - added my own triangle as relating personal experience;  just to be on safe side)

Oh Kizzy, how I can identify with that! >bighugs< Wasn't able to escape my own nightmare of a partner for 10 years, during which time I was dismissed as 'unstable' or 'imagining it' due to my MH conditions. Most people thought my ex was wonderful. :-(
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 11 Nov 2012 12:29PM
NN - fortunately I was not in a 'partner' relationship with the individual I described above; he basically set himself up to be like, well, a mentor/counsellor/father figure type of thing.  Which led to me 'attaching' to him with complete trust and confiding in him all sorts of personal things ... which were then used against me to whittle away at what little self-esteem I had.  It was strictly psychological warfare and initially so subtle that I didn't see what was going on - it took someone from 'outside' to warn me because he had 'form' elsewhere for this sort of below-the-radar bullying behaviour.  Anyway, he's someone I can happily forget and I know I'll never be taken in like that again...

These 'serial bully' types often have psychopathic tendencies - one of which includes an ability to hide from others what they're doing to their victims and to present a totally plausible and convincing 'false front'.   If caught out and challenged, the rage is incredible (as I found out for myself) followed by attempts to 'discredit the witness' - as you found out too, NN. 

But, even if they seem to have got away with it, the biggest blow you can deliver to them is to rebuild your life and be happy again despite the poisonous legacy they left you with.  For those who feed their (over-inflated) egos from others' misery and humiliation, that's the greatest 'up yours' that there is  >biggrin<
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: NeuralgicNeurotic on 11 Nov 2012 12:40PM
Agreed. I'm a firm believer in the idea that the 'best revenge is to live well'.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 11 Nov 2012 12:45PM
And I've just realised that I went a bit off-topic there because my experience wasn't domestic abuse... but it just goes to show how other types of abusive relationships between adults can be destructive in their own way, like bullying at work and harassment from nasty neighbours.  I think that the more open people can be about all forms of bullying, the more we can learn from each other to help protect ourselves in the future!  Knowledge is power  >thumbsup<
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: boccius on 11 Nov 2012 04:10PM
I personally don't think I could risk it, it would kill me if it ended up as not guilty. ..... For me this legislation means nothing.

I'm with Fiz on this one. Legislate all you want, but if the resources aren't there on every level, then it doesn't help.

Off the topic, but on the point: would you give evidence against a gangster and go into 'witness protection'? I would, but only if all my friends and relations were already dead and thus beyond harm.

A.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: nearlyperfect on 11 Nov 2012 05:50PM
Kizzy my heart goes out to you love

Yes of course the help is virtually non existent.   What makes me cross is that PTSD is something which only happens to soldiers.    Today I wrote to a know nothing fool  (well, he is an m.p. so what else would we expect?)    He was the author of an Independent article, stating that he had been a soldier, and thought soldiers should be offered PTSD screening.

I asked him if he had ever noticed the catholic priest scandal, the JS scandal, or the fact half the population are female.   (Clearly not.    As an m.p., he is above noticing mere facts)

Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 11 Nov 2012 07:11PM
Thank you, Nearlyperfect, and welcome to OuchToo  >biggrin<

What makes me cross is that PTSD is something which only happens to soldiers. 

I think it's better now than it used to be, the understanding - well, it was in the mental health services anyway, who accepted that I had PTSD initiated by their own treatment of me as a teen in their institutions  >doh< ('pin-down' procedures and stuff) and later added to by experiences as described earlier.  Have to say I was a bit of a 'bully magnet' for much of my life, but not any more, not now I understand why.

For a really excellent PTSD 'self-help' book, I recommend 'I Can't Get Over It' - A Handbook for Trauma Survivors' by Aphrodite Matsakis, a specialist in the field.  It covers situations like rape, child sexual abuse, domestic abuse and other crime, and even suicide of a loved one - all can lead to PTSD, not just war and combat.  It certainly made a lot of sense to me  >thumbsup<
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 11 Nov 2012 10:32PM
Kizzy my heart goes out to you love

Yes of course the help is virtually non existent.   What makes me cross is that PTSD is something which only happens to soldiers.    Today I wrote to a know nothing fool  (well, he is an m.p. so what else would we expect?)    He was the author of an Independent article, stating that he had been a soldier, and thought soldiers should be offered PTSD screening.

I asked him if he had ever noticed the catholic priest scandal, the JS scandal, or the fact half the population are female.   (Clearly not.    As an m.p., he is above noticing mere facts)
Is this the article you refer to?  http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/routine-screening-would-stop-suffering-8303840.html?origin=internalSearch

He says "for instance" where he refers to veterans.  I think the reference specifically to the example of veterans is appropriate for Remembrance Sunday, just as it might be to refer to any other group for which there is a particular day or a particular news item or inquiry. 

Quite frankly, I think that to object to an MP picking out the example of veterans on Remembrance Sunday is a bit tacky.  Would you have felt it inappropriate to refer to the example of survivors of abuse on a day when the key news item related to it?

As for "the fact half the population are female"  I am at a loss to see how you feel that the example he gives ignores the fact that half the population is female.  Perhaps you weren't aware that veterans aren't all male?  Curiously, female veterans aren't in any way unusual or rare.  Female veterans can and do get ptsd. 

I suppose there are always people who object to having one day a year when we specifically remember the victims of war rather than the victims of other things. 

I remember an old man I knew who lived in the bedsit next to mine.  He had been a conscript in WW2 doing bomb disposal and many years later, he still had horrendous nightmares and many years later, when he walked to and from his local legion club, he was still mocked by young lads.  One day a year, he put his smart clothes on and his medals and there were people out there who remembered those who died or were injured in war, including the people he fought alongside and against.  For one day a year, he wasn't the object of derision.

Is one day a year so very much to remember such people?

Declaration of interest:-

I am a female veteran with PTSD both from active service and from sexual assault.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 11 Nov 2012 11:47PM
One day a year is certainly the least our veterans deserve Sunny!   For me, among other things, it's a day to think of the grandfather I never met because he was killed on HMS Hood in 1941 when my dad was a toddler.

That said, I am pleased to see people like the author of the book Kizzy mentioned are finally recognising that there are many events which can be traumatising

regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 11 Nov 2012 11:59PM
Personally, I think the PTSD classification draws the boundaries in the wrong place.

Obviously, the current concept arises out of shell shock then battle fatigue then PTSD as the latest incarnation.  I don't know what will happen with it in the DSMV.

It's been expanded but not, I think, adequately or effectively.

Some people regard BPD as a complex PTSD whilst others want it reclassified as a mood disorder, and if the latter happens, where does that leave us with the long term aftermath of trauma?

Should the notion of PTSD be about a short term thing and the longer term effects be classified not in terms of the initial reaction  but in terms of their long-term effects, and if so, do we lack one or more classifications to put them in?

My gut feeling is that it should be so and that the time factor shouldn't be precise but in terms of the stages of recovery - there's the initial impact then there's whether a long term condition sets in.  If one of the otherwise conditions doesn't cover it, then IMO we need a new classification to fill the gap, not to see the classification of PTSD as something that covers the long-term impact.
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 12 Nov 2012 12:06AM
I'm not sure I understand why BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder for anyone who's wondering) needs to be re-classified as either a complex PTSD or a mood disorder - it already has its own classification under the personality disorders axis.  As far as I know they are still mired in arguments about DSM V (the diagnostic & statistical manual of the American Psychiatric Association)
regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 12 Nov 2012 12:17AM
There are some strong advocates of the idea that BPD is an axis 1 condition not an axis 2 condition.  Personally, I think that there's an argument worth considering that it needs to be reclassified under axis 1 but I'd prefer it to be split into two classifications under axes 1 and 2, distinguishing between the behavioural patterns and the emotional instability.

Having said that, I think the whole concept of a personality disorder needs to be revised with the word personality got rid of.  Behavioural disorder??  The old concept of the personality that's messed up but you're stuck with because personality is of the essence of who and what you are is past its sell-by date.

I don't have a problem with the notion that many people with BPD fit neatly into axis 2, I just think that there are a lot of people who fit the criteria for whom axis 2 is rather missing the point. 
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 12 Nov 2012 12:26AM
If they said it was a behavioural disorder that would tend to imply the behaviour was learned from experience: do we have evidence that is definitely the case? (not an area of work I keep up with)   Not everyone with a BPD diagnosis admits to a history of trauma.
Maybe it is more that there are some personality issues and then on top of that the person acquires some more treatable mood / anxiety / obsessional / whatever other disorders?>
regards, Deb
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 12 Nov 2012 01:01AM
Multiple layers makes some sense to me.

However, I feel uncomfortable with the distinction between that which is learnt and that which is personality.  I don't believe that personality is laid down from birth.  Yes, aspects of it are genetic, but I don't believe that that's the whole of it and I do believe that environmental factors are a significant part of it. 

I also think that the word personality does lead to this ambiguity.  One person uses it to mean one thing and another person uses it to mean another and that is the very reason why I am uncomfortable with the phrase personality disorder.

However, I take on board your concerns about my suggested use of the word behaviour.  I don't know what other word could be used.

I also accept that not everyone with a BPD dx admits to a history of trauma, which is why I think the current classification is lacking.  I think it lumps together people with quite different issues and mixes together different sorts of problems. 
Title: Re: finally! : Domestic abuse to include non-violent control
Post by: devine63 on 12 Nov 2012 08:35AM
Hi Sunny

personality is a difficult concept, psychologists don't really have agreement about it amongst themselves, but broadly speaking the inherited aspects of personality are usually called temperament and the more experiential / learned aspects are overlaid on that.  However it is more usual to consider personality in terms of personality traits (e.g. introvert-extrovert, open-minded -- closed-minded) and these traits vary in the extent to which they are influenced by experience ....   however that is research in personality psychology which is not necessarily related to work in psychiatry...
regards, Deb