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Forum => Welfare Rights => Topic started by: Fiz on 02 Sep 2017 02:32PM

Title: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 02 Sep 2017 02:32PM
Scenario.

Person with a spinal condition which causes constant pain. They can walk at normal speed up to half a mile where nerve pain becomes excruciating and they can barely get home. They take class 1 painkillers constantly, tablets and patches. There are no shops or anything within half a mile so they are effectively housebound because they can't walk the mile to a shop. Even moving around the house is very painful.

As I read the PIP criteria because they can walk 20 metres or even 50 at normal speed they wouldn't be entitled to PIP or does the fact they a) they are on constant pain and take class 1 drugs daily in order to mobilise at all and b) they can't actually get anywhere due to the distance being too far so are effectively housebound have any impact on the decision?

Thanks.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 02 Sep 2017 03:08PM
Quote
b) they can't actually get anywhere due to the distance being too far so are effectively housebound have any impact on the decision?

I could be wrong but I dont think personal living circumstances like that are taken into account.

Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 02 Sep 2017 03:47PM
I'm sure you're right sunshine, that's what I assumed too. I was wondering whether the amount and type and frequency of necessary pain relief had any impact. Reading PIP criteria it's not at all clear on this.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 02 Sep 2017 08:27PM
The repeatedly, reliably thing may be relevant.  I'll see if I can find a reference to it.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 02 Sep 2017 08:29PM
Here's my notes on it, but I don't have a source.  I'll see if I can find one to make sure it's up-to-date.

Reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely

An individual must be able to complete an activity descriptor reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely; and where indicated, using aids or with support from another person. Otherwise they should be considered unable to complete the activity described at that level.

Reliably means to a reasonable standard.

In a timely fashion means in less than twice the time it would take for an individual without any impairment.

Repeatedly means completed as often during the day as the individual activity requires. Consideration needs to be given to the cumulative effects of symptoms such as pain and fatigue – i.e. whether completing the activity adversely affects the individual’s ability to subsequently complete other activities.

Safely means in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to the individual, either directly or through vulnerability to the actions of others; or to another person.

Risk and Safety

When considering whether an activity can be undertaken safely it is important to consider the risk of a serious adverse event occurring. However, the risk that a serious adverse event may occur due to impairments is insufficient – there has to be evidence that if the activity was undertaken, the adverse event is likely to occur.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 02 Sep 2017 08:32PM
I've found a reference in my folder to a DWP toolkit for assessors but I don't have a link for it and I don't have a cloud-thingy I can link to.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 02 Sep 2017 08:38PM
Citizens Advice

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/how-decisions-are-made/


When the assessor decides which descriptor applies to you, they must consider whether you can carry out the activity reliably. This means:

    safely in a way that is unlikely to cause harm either to you or anyone else, either during the activity or afterwards
    to an acceptable standard
    repeatedly as often as is reasonably required
    in a reasonable time period - should take you no more than twice as long someone without your condition
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 03 Sep 2017 09:05AM
Here's my notes on it, but I don't have a source.  I'll see if I can find one to make sure it's up-to-date.

Reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely

An individual must be able to complete an activity descriptor reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely; and where indicated, using aids or with support from another person. Otherwise they should be considered unable to complete the activity described at that level.

Reliably means to a reasonable standard.

In a timely fashion means in less than twice the time it would take for an individual without any impairment.

Repeatedly means completed as often during the day as the individual activity requires. Consideration needs to be given to the cumulative effects of symptoms such as pain and fatigue – i.e. whether completing the activity adversely affects the individual’s ability to subsequently complete other activities.

Safely means in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to the individual, either directly or through vulnerability to the actions of others; or to another person.

Risk and Safety

When considering whether an activity can be undertaken safely it is important to consider the risk of a serious adverse event occurring. However, the risk that a serious adverse event may occur due to impairments is insufficient – there has to be evidence that if the activity was undertaken, the adverse event is likely to occur.

Thanks sunny. I think the one that sticks out as most important is the repeatedly, because the movement often causes pain causing incapacity for 2-4 days. Therefore they don't mobilise because they'd probably end up incapacitated for days. They're in pain all the time too. I'm not sure how many points this alone would give them though.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Monic1511 on 03 Sep 2017 06:03PM
re:  They can walk at normal speed up to half a mile - you need to be clearer about statements like that as that would lose an award.
As Sunny said there is also repeatedly, reliably and safely.

The DWP will say the condition has to affect you the majority of the time and if the pain only comes on with exertion of half a mile then there is no way they have mobility problems as most folk wouldn't walk half a mile rest and expect a blue badge.   That statement needs to be watered down.   Extreme and debilitating Nerve pain is triggered by walking distances, as a result of this the claimant limits their mobilising efforts to once a week.  They cannot repeatedly mobilise more than 20 steps without having to stop for a rest, repeated mobilising of short distances causes the same result and the claimant is bed bound as a result.

Don't say things like I walked to the shops - the tribunal use google maps so know how far the shops are and unless you can show the shortcuts - I didn't walk half a mile, I walked across my neighbours back garden which is 20 - 30 m - then you are screwed.

pain on its own is no reason not to mobilise  unfortunately
 >dove< Monic
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 03 Sep 2017 11:10PM
Thanks Monic that's helpful.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 12 Sep 2017 01:06PM
When I filled in my PIP form, I assumed I wouldn't get the mobility element  but gave them loads of info about my mobility anyway on the basis that it would form the foundation for a later claim if it worsens, i.e. to show it's an ongoing problem.

However, given how frequently I'm falling and the injuries I'm getting, I think that if I don't get the mobility element, I may appeal, because the 'safely' aspect is increasingly a problem, and I hadn't really thought about the 'repeatedly' impact in terms of recovery like fatigue and stiffened muscles  etc.  You know how it is, you have a fall or walk further than your body is currently up to, and you can think in terms of pain rather than physical dysfunction even when the new pain arises from a physical dysfunction, and it's the physical dysfunction that is actually the biggest obstacle, e.g. torn muscle fibres or cramps or whatever.  (I'm one of those people that tends to forget that 'torn' muscles aren't just about some nasty injury that rips a whole muscle apart, it's also the little fibres that then have to heal.)

But I'm having another of those days where I shake my head at it.  I know the government wants to cut benefits, but I do think that a lot of these criteria aren't about cutting it the way the leading politicians conceptualise what they're doing.  They're not lifting the floor so that if you have ten people on DLA/PIP, they deny them to the 3 or 4 least disabled, they're denying them to 3 or 4 random people on the benefits. 

Having said that, I can suddenly think of a perfect analogy - the education system.  I can't say I think the exams in my day made much sense, but if you see what the youngsters get tested on now, most of it seems to bear little relation to the realities of life and the subjects ostensibly being tested.  Or I go and see my GP about my mental health and he's checking my blood pressure and weight etc. while we're talking because his government targets for me as a mad patient are my physical health not my sanity, the latter being a presumed unwritten target of treatment, but which he has little time for whilst achieving physical targets.

So I approach this subject with a mixture of negativity (which is generally worse than usual for me at the moment), cynicism, and hope, the last being based on what others here are saying about getting their PIP.

Hang on - I've got it!  Having regard to modern culture, the way to 'bribe' my PIP assessor into saying yes is to turn up with a cat on a roomba and to tell her she can have both; plus a dancing parrot that repeats "Austerity is good, approve one claim in 20, sanction the rest."

 >erm<

Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 21 Sep 2017 05:48PM
I'm seriously considering reapplying with a change of circumstances because of my back pain.  I'm now on tramadol every day and oramorph for when I leave the house and walk for more than 5 minutes. Plus after a walking day I'm in extreme pain and mostly bedridden for 2-3 days. But I will see if the spine clinic do investigations on the current condition of my spine and if that proves a deterioration. It really needs an MRI to see the spinal nerves and cord but I expect they will just do an X ray as it's so much cheaper.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 04 Oct 2017 09:18AM
Looking at the PIP taking a journey question. What is a journey, or more accurately how do thee DWP define it?

Is going to the post box around the corner a journey?
To the shops 2 miles away?
Or to visit a relative 40 miles away?

Seems to me not knowing exactly what a journey is in the eyes of the DWP it's an impossible question to answer.

I'm aiming to discuss PIP mobility with my GP when she visits today but she's bound to want to know the same thing.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 04 Oct 2017 10:19AM
I don't know what they call a journey, but when filling in my PIP form, if in doubt, I defined everything, but then I can be very obsessive compulsive with paperwork.  So if they want to know what you can do alone or whatever, maybe say something quite specific that shows how far you can or can't go, what sort of places you can or can't go to. 

Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 04 Oct 2017 10:32AM
Epilepsy society

"'Journey' means a local journey, whether familiar or unfamiliar. 'Follow' means having the mental ability to reliably follow a route, it does not mean the physical act of moving. "

Pipinfo (pipinfonet)

"In [2016] UKUT 420 (AAC) Judge Jacobs confirms that, although the DWP guidance on Activity 1 defines a journey as being a 'local' journey, the legislation does not state this and there is therefore no requirement for the descriptor to be assessed in relation to a local journey."

(There's a lot more there - both on the page and on the site, particularly stuff backed up by decisions not just opinion.  It's a charity backed by the Law Society.)




Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Monic1511 on 04 Oct 2017 07:53PM
At tribunal when they talk about taking a journey they mentioned things like travelling across the road to a friends house, travelling 4 doors down to the local shop and the gp.

the thing you have to remember is that there have been amendments to the legislation and from 17.03.17 descriptor f should read
"Cannot, for reasons other than psychological distress, follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid"

this also applies to c.  cannot for reasons other than psychological distressplan the route of a journey 4 points
d Cannot, for reasons other than psychological distress, follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid" 10 points

Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 19 Oct 2017 10:52AM
This is where it seems daft. If my GP or a shop were 4 doors down I could almost certainly get there with necessary pain relief. But as the nearest anything is a mile away my GP does home visits and my shopping is online and the asda man empties the crates onto worktops as I can't bend. So yes, I would get 4 doors down if I had to but as anywhere I need to go is further than I can get I am housebound to all extent and purposes. I think the questions don't fit everybody. I'm really low at the moment so all forms are beyond me.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Oct 2017 01:18PM
 >bighugs<
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: NeuralgicNeurotic on 25 Oct 2017 05:58AM
 >bighugs<
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 01 Nov 2017 12:45AM
Talked about it with my CPN again today. Despite being physically able to walk a distance, one such trip causes agony at the time, dependence on morphine and a minimum of 2 days in bed to recover. I'm on 15mg of buprenorphine patches too. Also anything that causes my pain to increase so I need morphine, such as walking a distance,, unintentionally moving a certain way will cause urinary incontinence then and for a number of hours or days after. Life is grim and I'm virtually housebound with currently my one weekly trip out of the house in term time for which I take morphine 3 times that day and spend the weekend in bed recovering from pain and I'm still unsure if I'm entitled to PIP mobility because I walk that one journey. Despite the pain it causes me, the drugs I need to take and the long recovert time needed afterwards.

My CPN feels being housebound and seeing no one is having a huge negative impact on my mood. But there's no chance of that changing without a car. And I'm able to be too mobile to qualify for a motability one despite the one walk I do a week causing me such pain and incapacitating me it's completely stupid.

I'm so low right now and can see no way out of this pain, or of not being housebound and I'm unsure if life is worth it or bearable like this. I think the urinary incontinence movement causes me is as bad as the other two things. My CPN says she'd write what ever she could to help any application I made but as far as I'm told here, because I make that journey it makes me ineligible for the benefit. Whatever state it leaves me in.

I've tried my best to spell check this, excuse anything I've missed. Too many meds to think straight.

Oh how I long to be able to walk to a shop or walk my dog. Both things totally out of the question for me.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 04 Nov 2017 11:01AM
Based on how you've explained it in your last post, I get the impression you're not taking into account the reliably, repeatedly thing.  It isn't a question of whether you can make the journey once a week, it's a question of whether you can  keep doing it.

Take a deep breath, then when you feel ready, picture the walk you've described, then scroll back up the thread to where Monic posted and check that you're thinking of the right sort of journey.  Then, when you're sure you've picked the right sort of journey, and again when you're ready, look at the reliably, repeatedly criteria I've listed and ask yourself whether you've taken them all into account.

Based on what you've just posted, my impression is that you can't do this journey when you take into account those criteria.

If that doesn't help, well at least you know where you stand.
Title: Re: PIP mobility scenario
Post by: Fiz on 04 Nov 2017 08:57PM
As far as I understood it a journey was going somewhere 4 doors down the road. That is a journey I could possibly do up to 4 times a week with pain killers so that's fairly reliable to be able to do that. However I've nothing 4 doors down the road and can only make one trip out a week which is excruciating. I've given up posting letters because the post box is 5 minutes (or 10 for me) walk away plus the same back so I wait for someone to visit and ask them to post it.

I'm finding getting out of cars really painful now. Even turning my whole body rather than twisting my spine doesn't stop the dagger pains in my spine. So even car journeys are tricky. My care coordinator this week is pushing for me to apply for PIP mobility but I'm not sure I have the inner strength.

And I was going to say something I shouldn't.  Suffice to say I struggle to think long term.