Godwin alternatives?

  • 4 Replies
  • 435 Views

Sunny Clouds

  • *
  • Charter Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745

Godwin alternatives?

  • on: 25 Feb 2018 11:25AM
If disabled people or other people hit by what the government is doing draw analogies with what was done by Hitler & Co, they get the knee-jerk "Godwin!" response.

So what likenesses could be used instead?

Surely there must be regimes and political happenings that provide analogies for how disabled people are being treated now that are seen as 'bad' in terms of popular culture in the UK.

They need, I think, not to be seen as genocidal regimes, so as not to make it seem like an exaggeration.

I suppose one could talk about Dickensian times, but I think that gets debunked easily.

One analogy I use but can't find a quick way to describe, is that I describe what's being done to our welfare state as being like when Henry VIII closed the monasteries and in the process closed those institutions that provided education, relief of poverty, health/nursing care, homes for the homeless, care of the elderly etc., which left people with no help until Elizabeth I signed off on what's now called the Statute of Elizabeth, creating the type of tax-exempt trust that's called a charity.  It then took hundreds of years for Victorian philanthropy to set in and for two world wars to give rise to the welfare state we've been familiar with that attempted to fill the gaps where charity and philanthropy were insufficient.  How long will it take to devise and create an alternative to what's being currently dismantled?

Well, that works with those that want to chat, discuss, sound reasonable (even if at the start they have no sympathy with the 'welfare scroungers').

But what would work as a shorthand analogy?  "It's like where in [country our country doesn't like to be likened to], under the leadership of [disliked regime but not commonly referred to stereotype of genocidal tyanny] they took away support for disabled (and poor?) people until [we/our allies/a country our country likes to be associated with] did something about it."
« Last Edit: 25 Feb 2018 12:55PM by Sunny Clouds »
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

KizzyKazaer

  • *
  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8537

Re: Godwin alternatives?

  • on: 25 Feb 2018 09:23PM
Totally agree we need a more suitable comparison, Sunny.

Quote
But what would work as a shorthand analogy?  "It's like where in [country our country doesn't like to be likened to], under the leadership of [disliked regime but not commonly referred to stereotype of genocidal tyanny] they took away support for disabled (and poor?) people until [we/our allies/a country our country likes to be associated with] did something about it."

Couldn't help thinking, 'give it a few more years and you might be able to use Donald Trump's America as the 'disliked regime'... Seems he's not over-fond of his disabled citizens: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/news/2017/03/08/427629/5-ways-president-trumps-agenda-disaster-people-disabilities/

Sunny Clouds

  • *
  • Charter Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745

Re: Godwin alternatives?

  • on: 26 Feb 2018 01:39PM
Since the Guardian started reporting on more in Australia, New Zealand and Canada, I've seen more cutbacks there.  I can't say which country is worst, because the news seems pretty much the same - cuts to benefits and health care and social care.

I think something that wasn't really fully taken on board by the public over here was the enormous implications of time-limiting contributions-based WRAG ESA.  Thin end of the wedge.  They'll chip away at other benefits a bit at a time.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

ATurtle

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1501
    • The Awesome Turtle Blog

Re: Godwin alternatives?

  • on: 27 Feb 2018 08:55PM
I think the obvious "Godwin" comparison with mid-1930-mid-1940 Germany is because of the similarity with the use of the media to spread the negative feelings about those of us who are unable to support ourselves, and therefore labeled with George Osbourne's "Scrounger" tag, not as bad as the "Black Triangle" badges that people like us eighty years ago had to wear.

The disadvantage with defining it as a German thing is that most Germans were not in favour of segregation or the use of the concentration camps, basically because most of it was hidden by the Nazi leaders.  Unfortunately, the parallels are there, and unless you can find a media-savvy like Heinrich Himmler (or the previous four Press Secretaries to the Tory Party, the latest is more on confusing people about Brexit) then there can be no comparison.

I'm sorry, but until there's a reasonable alternative, Godwin wins!
Tony.

"I choose not to place "DIS", in my ability." - Robert M. Hensel

Sunny Clouds

  • *
  • Charter Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745

Re: Godwin alternatives?

  • on: 27 Feb 2018 09:29PM
The problem with the Nazi comparison is that for all that there are massive parallels, including bumping off disabled people one at a time to begin with, as soon as you mention it a lot of those that simply don't and won't see what the government is doing switch off and an opportunity to get the message across is lost.

So even though other parallels may be less exact, they're still important for communication purposes.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)