Eight years for termination

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picnic

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Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 03:40PM
I have not read the details, but it seems a woman had two children and did not want another.  She had concealed one pregnancy from her husband right up to the birth, had given one baby for adoption and terminated another pregnancy.

It is hard to know how much true freedom of thought she had, when she apparently discovered she was yet again pregnant by a work colleague.   She at once asked for termination, but was a few weeks too late, so she was refused.   She then tried to get a private termination, by surgery or by a drug.    By the time she obtained a drug, she was getting near to full term.  She said there was a still birth, and that she had concealed the corpse.     

She must have been full of hormones.   Was it post natal depression and shock which made her fail to play act  the part the men in court were demanding from her ?   Did she have competent compassionate legal advice?

The judge wanted a display of remorse, and for her to give details of what she did with the still born body.     

How old are her other children?    Is anything to be gained by the fortune it will cost to keep her locked up for eight years?   Will she ever get employment again?      Is the sentence reasonable or proportionate ?    Is it indirectly sex discriminatory?

There is long history of women being doubly punished by criminal courts, being more likely to be imprisoned for first and for minor offences, and for longer, and being punished for 'demeanour', and for failure to comply with stereotype.   

The horrible court treatment for rape victims was an example of entrenched misogyny from a largely male profession, as was the notion that a man may kill his wife with a single violent blow, because her conduct momentarily enraged him, but a woman, whose weaker strength cannot produce an equally impulsive blow, has no excuse of being provoked by her husband's conduct, if she poisons his tea to escape years of abuse.    At one time, a woman would be forbidden to see her children again, if she were found guilty of adultery.   Before that, a man owned his wife,and the children pretty much outright as a slave owner, to beat, starve or imprison at his will.    He also had ownership of any fortune she brought to the marriage, to squander as he liked.

How much distance has really been  travelled in the male minds of those who make laws and administer justice?

Sofie

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 04:02PM
I know what case you're talking about. I do think that 8 years is a bit excessive, in part.

Monic1511

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 04:38PM
I wonder why she didn't wait one week more and just give up the baby for adoption as she had done previously.

stalwart

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 05:56PM
 I'm afraid that I might upset some people on this.

 I don't believe that this has anything to do with misogyny, take a look at what was reported.

1. The police called her a "cold and calculating woman"  Why, remember this was probably investigated by female officers.

2. She only went for a test 40 days after the 24 week limit for an abortion.  I know it's possible that she might not have realised but it's unlikely.

3. That she made long and deliberate enquiries as to illegal abortion and the availability of the drugs needed.

4. She used these drugs 1 week before the baby was due.

5. She refuses to say what happened to the baby.


 The judge commented that this was as close to murder as possible, one week later had she killed her baby after it was born it would have been.  He also had to abide by the law, (3) showed that it was a premeditated act.  With only 1 week to go why didn't she wait and give the baby up for adoption instead of killing it.   But the most important thing IMHO is the refusal to say where the body is, why?, was the baby really dead on birth, or is there a more sinister motive.

   He sentenced her for the charge she admitted to "administering a poison with intent to procure an abortion", manslaughter has a discriminatory life sentence.  IMO at that age it is a human being, a child, would you say the same about killing a child?

I'm sorry but some years ago my neice was 6 months pregnant and was told her baby had died, they made her wait for the full term.  What she must have gone through during that time and knowing she would give birth to a dead baby ......well thank god I can never know.   Then this woman doesn't give a &&&& and kills her child!!  she should have got life.

Sofie

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 06:05PM
Wow, what a thought provoking post, Stalwart!

ditchdwellers

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 06:40PM
I agree with Stalwart on this. 

Looking at her history, she knew exactly what she was doing, and the baby would have been viable.  I think the fact that she won't reveal what happened to the baby is cruel and callous.

Monic1511

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 18 Sep 2012 07:29PM
Picnic
to answer your question is 8 years excessive - no sorry I don't think so.
My sums might be off but she has had at least 5 pregancies so I think she knew she was pregnant and to wait until the week before the baby was due to take the poison was cruel to the unborn baby.
As for the other questions
How old are her other children?    not sure but they are with their dad and if mum is so blase at killing their siblings will they be secure in her love?
Is anything to be gained by the fortune it will cost to keep her locked up for eight years?   Our justice system says you have to be incarcerated I don't think community service would be a good thnig anyway.
Will she ever get employment again?      If she keeps her head down she might get a cleaners job
Is the sentence reasonable or proportionate ?    If she had waited a week or the babies body found and murder proved it would probably have been longer
Is it indirectly sex discriminatory? since men cant give birth I don't think you can discriminate against a pregant male


this is the independents take on it


A woman has been jailed for eight years after taking drugs to abort her baby just days before it was due.

Mother-of-two Sarah Catt took a drug which she bought on the internet to induce her labour.

Catt told a psychiatrist she had taken the drug while her husband was away and delivered the baby boy, who was not breathing or moving, by herself at home. A court heard she wanted to terminate the pregnancy because she believed the father of the child was her lover of seven years, rather than her husband. She had previously tried to have an abortion at a Marie Stopes clinic, but was refused as she was five weeks beyond the legal limit of 24 weeks.

Catt, 35, from Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, pleaded guilty earlier this year to administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage.

Yesterday she was jailed at Leeds Crown Court by Mr Justice Cooke, who said she would have been charged with murder if the baby had been born a few days later and she had then killed him. The court heard she had previously given a baby up for adoption and terminated another pregnancy with the agreement of her husband. She also concealed a fourth pregnancy from her husband before the child's birth. After being turned away by Marie Stopes in March 2012, she made several searches on the internet about illegal abortions and abortion drugs, including: "Where can I get an illegal abortion?" and "Inducing an abortion at 30 weeks", the court heard.

She bought drugs online from a company in Mumbai in April 2010 and it is thought she took them around May 26. She said she buried the body but would not tell police where.

Frances Oldham QC, mitigating, described the case as "highly unusual" and said Catt was a "supportive and loving mother" to her two children and was sorry for her actions.

Mr Justice Cooke told her: "What you have done is rob an apparently healthy child, vulnerable and defenceless, of the life which he was about to commence."

Chief Inspector Kerrin Smith, of North Yorkshire Police, said: "Catt has proved to be cold and calculating, and has shown no remorse or given an explanation for what she did, lying to the police, health professionals and her family throughout the investigation."
Im sorry of this is offensive to you but I don't think the court has been harsh if she really doesn't want children there are steps she could have taken a& she will be free in 4 years maximum anyway
 >dove<

Hurtyback

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 19 Sep 2012 01:34PM
This wasn't a 'terminaton', at this stage of gestation it was 'infanticide'.

Otter

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 19 Sep 2012 09:40PM
they need to find the baby, it could be still alive, she could have sold it
« Last Edit: 19 Sep 2012 09:52PM by Otter »

Fiz

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 21 Sep 2012 10:39PM
I don't think this sentence is enough. She will serve half of it, so 4 years for murder, the baby's life is worth more than that. And with her history I think she actually is drawn to this sort of drama and is at risk of continuing this behaviour. I would have liked her to be too old to have further children to reduce the risk of another late abortion.

Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 22 Sep 2012 04:48PM
I was undecided about this until I read the other replies to the thread.

I don't think eight years is long enough if she can be out in four. Also controversially I think this is one of those very rare occassions when the right to bear a child should be taken away and the woman should be sterilised.

If you have been pregnant and given birth before, I dont think it is possible not to know you are preganant again. The woman may have been in denial but from that perspective can a person in denial also manage to search the internet and find somewhere that sells abortion pills then order them. After she ordered the pills she had more time to think about it before they arrived.

boccius

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 23 Sep 2012 09:30AM
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

From The Guardian, a day or two ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/21/judge-jailed-abortion-woman-christian?newsfeed=true

Apparently the Judge who sent her down for 8 years is a right-wing Christian nutter, anti-abortionist and not too keen on Muslims either!

A

>Warning : the phrasing and language in this post is offensive to some Christians and should not be used in future posts. See my messages further down the thread. - Sunshine
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2012 02:17PM by SunshineMeadows »

KizzyKazaer

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 23 Sep 2012 10:28AM
She had concealed one pregnancy from her husband right up to the birth, had given one baby for adoption and terminated another pregnancy.

It is hard to know how much true freedom of thought she had, when she apparently discovered she was yet again pregnant by a work colleague.


I wonder where contraceptive measures featured in all this... or not, as the case may be.

Fiz

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 23 Sep 2012 11:46AM
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

From The Guardian, a day or two ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/21/judge-jailed-abortion-woman-christian?newsfeed=true

Apparently the Judge who sent her down for 8 years is a right-wing Christian nutter, anti-abortionist and not too keen on Muslims either!

A

As a Christian, I am really offended by that remark. Nothing out of that article implies the Judge is a right wing Christian nutter.

From the article itself

But while there is no suggestion that lawyers and judges associated with the LCF have been anything other than professional in their work, there has been unease among secular campaigners about its role.

It is well known that secularists want rid of Christianity totally and would love all people in any kind of office to be secularists so they would have unease about a Christin in any role. There is no evidence that this Judge has been anything other that professional throughout.

I'm really upset by that comment, am I a right wing Christian nutter then? Another lable to add to myself?


Advisory > I know you are upset but if you look at the section I underlined you have generalised and made a definate assumption about secularists> See my messages further down the thread. Sunshine
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2012 02:20PM by SunshineMeadows »

stalwart

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Re: Eight years for termination

  • on: 23 Sep 2012 12:51PM
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

From The Guardian, a day or two ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/21/judge-jailed-abortion-woman-christian?newsfeed=true

Apparently the Judge who sent her down for 8 years is a right-wing Christian nutter, anti-abortionist and not too keen on Muslims either!

A

I hope this comment is because you mis-read the article, otherwise I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you.

Nowhere does it give the impression that he is right wing (ok he's a judge! >whistle<) or a nutter.
He is entitled to his own opinion on any subject including abortion as long as he doesn't allow it to influence his decisions.
The only muslim mentioned is a person "radicalised" by a notorious imam, and who attempted to murder a politician known to be a devout christian.   He also mention that persons faith as being the values on which the common law of this country is founded.   Which is true.


What would have happened to this woman under sharia law?
(The above is not a "go" at muslims but a "be careful what you wish for")

Minor Advisory > the article does push the idea of guilt by association in that the judge is a member of  Lawyers' Christian Fellowship (LCF) and goes on to talk about another judge who is also a member. However I do agree that not enough is said in the article to support Boccius's statement
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2012 02:27PM by SunshineMeadows »